Hindrances in meditation

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
SteRo
Posts: 3520
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am
Location: अ धीः

Re: Hindrances in meditation

Post by SteRo »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:41 am as a buddhist ...
:roll:
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 2705
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Hindrances in meditation

Post by rightviewftw »

mgm2010 wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:58 am 1. Kama - Sexual Passion
... is proving to be very very tough and is a MAJOR hindrance , as far as I am concerned. Similar may be the case with other similarly placed house holders.
One needs to focus a lot on the unattractiveness and ideally dwell neither seeing the opposite sex nor entertaining ideas that are connected to the opposite sex.

There are many more things one can cite as conducive and important to starving this hindrance but the basic principle is to establish perception of unattractiveness by giving attention and to create distance to the perception of attractiveness by not giving attention.

Eventually the perception of unattractiveness becomes the inclination due to frequent giving of attention, mind gets established in equanimity or loathing.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
2600htz
Posts: 580
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:37 pm

Re: Hindrances in meditation

Post by 2600htz »

Hi:

Do you get like sexual images, sexual thoughts while meditating? , is that the hindrance?.

Regards.
User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 2705
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Hindrances in meditation

Post by rightviewftw »

2600htz wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:44 pm Hi:

Do you get like sexual images, sexual thoughts while meditating? , is that the hindrance?.

Regards.
It can be all of those things. There can be urges to call up a date, wanting to go places where one can see wamen, wanting to talk to wamen, thinking about various wamen or planning trips with wamen.

It's often more subtle and intricate than faceup sexual urges. It's the little transgressions of not guarding the senses that buildup and leave one susceptible to leaving the training once there are adverse circumstances.

It hinders access to jhana as these thoughts distract by overcoming the power of samadhi, it is furthermore a cause for remorse if one knows one is making a slip here & there and it's a cause for worry because one worries about the training like 'it's too tough to maintain the training', 'my discipline is weak', 'why are these hindrances not subsiding', 'i am not doing enough' and etc
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 8980
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Hindrances in meditation

Post by DooDoot »

rightviewftw wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:58 pm One needs to focus a lot on the unattractiveness and ideally dwell neither seeing the opposite sex nor entertaining ideas that are connected to the opposite sex....
No. One needs to focus on metta, compassion & non-harming. Refer to MN 19 & SN 35.127.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
mgm2010
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 2:27 pm

Re: Hindrances in meditation

Post by mgm2010 »

2600htz wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:44 pm Hi:

Do you get like sexual images, sexual thoughts while meditating? , is that the hindrance?.

Regards.
No. I am able to go into rapture when I meditate and such thoughts do not disturb me as long as I am meditating. Quite obviously, as a house holder, I cannot devote unlimited time to meditation. Also, beyond a certain time, the rapture results in body/mind fatigue.
2. The carnal mental frame takes place when I am engaged in routine day to day activities. And, then, these thoughts/images strike with full force.
3. But, even during these moments of furious attacks, if I switch to a rapturous state even when not formally meditating [which I am able to do ], the mental frame changes instantly and these attacks vanish into thin air.
4, This is my state of mind as it stands.
5. Now, why I am so deeply disturbed by these unwanted thoughts is because, at the back of my mind, there is a feeling that it is such desires that ULTIMATELY LEADS TO THE CYCLE OF BIRTH AND DEATH. And I am striving to be free of this transmigration.
6. So I raise my hands to the Almighty and resort to prayer and contemplation.
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 3547
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Hindrances in meditation

Post by confusedlayman »

mgm2010 wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:38 am
2600htz wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:44 pm Hi:

Do you get like sexual images, sexual thoughts while meditating? , is that the hindrance?.

Regards.
No. I am able to go into rapture when I meditate and such thoughts do not disturb me as long as I am meditating. Quite obviously, as a house holder, I cannot devote unlimited time to meditation. Also, beyond a certain time, the rapture results in body/mind fatigue.
2. The carnal mental frame takes place when I am engaged in routine day to day activities. And, then, these thoughts/images strike with full force.
3. But, even during these moments of furious attacks, if I switch to a rapturous state even when not formally meditating [which I am able to do ], the mental frame changes instantly and these attacks vanish into thin air.
4, This is my state of mind as it stands.
5. Now, why I am so deeply disturbed by these unwanted thoughts is because, at the back of my mind, there is a feeling that it is such desires that ULTIMATELY LEADS TO THE CYCLE OF BIRTH AND DEATH. And I am striving to be free of this transmigration.
6. So I raise my hands to the Almighty and resort to prayer and contemplation.
how to get rapture without fatigue?

focus on ur own good karma action, thoguhts of 3 jewels and metta etc... this will energize u in no time.
dont think
2600htz
Posts: 580
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:37 pm

Re: Hindrances in meditation

Post by 2600htz »

mgm2010 wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:38 am
2600htz wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:44 pm Hi:

Do you get like sexual images, sexual thoughts while meditating? , is that the hindrance?.

Regards.
No. I am able to go into rapture when I meditate and such thoughts do not disturb me as long as I am meditating. Quite obviously, as a house holder, I cannot devote unlimited time to meditation. Also, beyond a certain time, the rapture results in body/mind fatigue.
2. The carnal mental frame takes place when I am engaged in routine day to day activities. And, then, these thoughts/images strike with full force.
3. But, even during these moments of furious attacks, if I switch to a rapturous state even when not formally meditating [which I am able to do ], the mental frame changes instantly and these attacks vanish into thin air.
4, This is my state of mind as it stands.
5. Now, why I am so deeply disturbed by these unwanted thoughts is because, at the back of my mind, there is a feeling that it is such desires that ULTIMATELY LEADS TO THE CYCLE OF BIRTH AND DEATH. And I am striving to be free of this transmigration.
6. So I raise my hands to the Almighty and resort to prayer and contemplation.
Hi:

Ohh ok so i would say that is normal to have some carnal mental frame taking place at certain times as a house holder.
There is also a craving in wanting to supress unwanted sexuality, because you are identifying with those thoughts and want to make them stop, taking them as "mine", or "i".

Still, i would advice to follow a gradual training if you feel it is something important you should be doing:

-The first thing would be to make sure you are having some harmonious sexuality (staying away from prostitutes, masturbation, under age partners, pornography, violent sex, wifes of other peoples, rooted traumas with sexuality,etc.)

-If you are able to keep those rules, then you might want to adopt some sense control. Example: staying away from seeing provocative pictures on the internet, reading sexual novels, i dont know going to strip bars, etc.

-If you follow those, then go to even minor things like: stop making visual contact with beautiful forms, having sex only with someone you love, having sex only at certain times, etc.

Thats what i can think of.

Regards.
simsapa
Posts: 200
Joined: Sat May 23, 2020 5:51 pm

Re: Hindrances in meditation

Post by simsapa »

1. Kama - Sexual Passion
2. Krodha - Anger
3. Lobh - Greed
4. Moha - Attachment
5. Ahankar - Ego
Dear Sir, this is the Five Thieves in Sikhism. I have respect for all religions, but here we are discussing Buddhist ideas, specifically from the Pali tradition.
6. So I raise my hands to the Almighty and resort to prayer and contemplation.
This tradition is not theistic. Buddha is not a god. I respect your right to do as you wish, but is it your desire to practice Buddhism? Or rather something else?
User avatar
Goofaholix
Posts: 2997
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:49 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Hindrances in meditation

Post by Goofaholix »

mgm2010 wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:38 am No. I am able to go into rapture when I meditate and such thoughts do not disturb me as long as I am meditating. Quite obviously, as a house holder, I cannot devote unlimited time to meditation. Also, beyond a certain time, the rapture results in body/mind fatigue.
2. The carnal mental frame takes place when I am engaged in routine day to day activities. And, then, these thoughts/images strike with full force.
3. But, even during these moments of furious attacks, if I switch to a rapturous state even when not formally meditating [which I am able to do ], the mental frame changes instantly and these attacks vanish into thin air.
4, This is my state of mind as it stands.
5. Now, why I am so deeply disturbed by these unwanted thoughts is because, at the back of my mind, there is a feeling that it is such desires that ULTIMATELY LEADS TO THE CYCLE OF BIRTH AND DEATH. And I am striving to be free of this transmigration.
6. So I raise my hands to the Almighty and resort to prayer and contemplation.
It sounds to me like you have cultivated rapture and that rapture is temporarily masking the hindrances, but you haven't cultivated wisdom.

If you had cultivated wisdom you would see these for what they are, impermanent and impersonal mental phenomenon. That's the first step, then when they arise in meditation and you recognise them there is an opportunity to learn from them, to understand their nature, and let go of them. One of the first things you'll notice when doing this is that resistance to them makes them stronger whereas letting go of that resistance helps you to gradually let go of their hold on you over time.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah
mgm2010
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 2:27 pm

Re: Hindrances in meditation

Post by mgm2010 »

2600htz wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:50 pm
...... because you are identifying with those thoughts and want to make them stop, taking them as "mine", or "i".
1. Herein lies the catch, Sir.
2. Can we elaborate this point further ??
3. Also, please, suggest a book that covers ALL THE ESSENTIAL features of buddhism for MEDITATION AND CHARACTER BUILDING, but, IN BRIEF.
simsapa
Posts: 200
Joined: Sat May 23, 2020 5:51 pm

Re: Hindrances in meditation

Post by simsapa »

Also, please, suggest a book that covers ALL THE ESSENTIAL features of buddhism for MEDITATION AND CHARACTER BUILDING, but, IN BRIEF.
Read the Dhammapada.
mgm2010
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 2:27 pm

Re: Hindrances in meditation

Post by mgm2010 »

Goofaholix wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 4:38 am ....... impermanent and impersonal mental phenomenon. .......
Many many thanks for pointing this out. Since quite some time I had started feeling that the raptures are becoming EMPTY day by day and it was time to move on. It rook me 2 to 3 years to reach here.

....... resistance to them makes them stronger whereas letting go of that resistance helps you to gradually let go of their hold on you over time.
I just cannot comprehend this portion, Sir. I shall be extremely grateful if this is elaborated.
User avatar
Goofaholix
Posts: 2997
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:49 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Hindrances in meditation

Post by Goofaholix »

mgm2010 wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:37 am I just cannot comprehend this portion, Sir. I shall be extremely grateful if this is elaborated.
It sounds to me like you feel you have to fight and overcome the hindrances, this give the hindrances a power and importance they don't deserve, you might be able to suppress them for a while but when they come back they come back stronger.

The Buddhist path is about cultivating wisdom, we seek to learn the nature of the hindrances, which as I say is impermanent and not me not mine, when we see that we can let go of fighting them and/or fueling them. By learning to deal with them skillfully we develop "spiritual muscles", like in a gym you can't develop muscles unless you use weights to push against the hindrances give us the opportunity to develop a skillful practice and "spiritual muscles".

To start this just notice when a hindrance arises, watch it as it changes, watch it as it passes away. If you don't react to it you will see it change and ultimately pass away. Of course it will arise again but gradually each time a little weaker.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah
User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 2705
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Hindrances in meditation

Post by rightviewftw »

Goofaholix wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:07 pm
mgm2010 wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:37 am I just cannot comprehend this portion, Sir. I shall be extremely grateful if this is elaborated.
It sounds to me like you feel you have to fight and overcome the hindrances, this give the hindrances a power and importance they don't deserve, you might be able to suppress them for a while but when they come back they come back stronger.
This is a good point, hindrances are to be starved not fought. They depend on nutriment and do not come into play without nutriment;
Just as, monks, this body lives on nourishment, lives dependent on nourishment, does not live without nourishment — in the same way, monks, the five hindrances live on nourishment, depend on nourishment, do not live without nourishment.— SN 46:2
A. Nourishment of Sensual Desire
There are beautiful objects; frequently giving unwise attention to them — this is the nourishment for the arising of sensual desire that has not arisen, and the nourishment for the increase and strengthening of sensual desire that has already arisen.— SN 46:51
B. Denourishing of Sensual Desire
There are impure objects; frequently giving wise attention to them — this is the denourishing of the arising of sensual desire that has not yet arisen, and the denourishing of the increase and strengthening of sensual desire that has already arisen.— SN 46:51
A. Nourishment of Ill-Will
There are objects causing aversion; frequently giving unwise attention to them — this is the nourishment for the arising of ill-will that has not yet arisen, and for the increase and strengthening of ill-will that has already arisen.— SN 46:51
B. Denourishing of Ill-Will
There is the liberation of the heart by loving-kindness; frequently giving wise attention to it — this is the denourishing of the arising of ill-will that has not yet arisen, and the decrease and weakening of ill-will that has already arisen.— SN 46:51
A. Nourishment of Sloth and Torpor
Cultivate the meditation on sympathetic joy! For by cultivating the meditation on sympathetic joy, listlessness disappears.
B. Denourishing of Sloth and Torpor
There is the element of rousing one's energy, the element of exertion, the element of continuous exertion; frequently giving wise attention to it — this is the denourishing of the arising of sloth and torpor that have not yet arisen and of the increase and strengthening of sloth and torpor.
A. Nourishment of Restlessness and Remorse
There is unrest of mind; frequently giving unwise attention to it — that is the nourishment for the arising of restlessness and remorse that have not yet arisen, and for the increase and strengthening of restlessness and remorse that have already arisen. — SN 46:51
B. Denourishing of Restlessness and Remorse
There is quietude of mind; frequently giving wise attention to it — that is the denourishing of the arising of restlessness and remorse that have not yet arisen, and of the increase and strengthening of restlessness and remorse that have already arisen. — SN 46:51
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
Post Reply