Why do I keep hearing that Mindfulness is a Form of Meditation?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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one_awakening
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Why do I keep hearing that Mindfulness is a Form of Meditation?

Post by one_awakening »

Is it?
“You only lose what you cling to”
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NuanceOfSuchness
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Re: Why do I keep hearing that Mindfulness is a Form of Meditation?

Post by NuanceOfSuchness »

one_awakening wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:37 amIs it?
From where are you quoting this from?
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Why do I keep hearing that Mindfulness is a Form of Meditation?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Not only is mindfulness a form of meditation, it is the only form that leads to the attainment of the four paths. Other methods may lead to absorption and mystic powers, but without the application of right-mindfulness they cannot lead on to the goal.
Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta wrote:373. “This is the only way, monks, for the purification of beings, for the transcendence of grief and lamentation, for the extinguishing of pain and sorrow, for attaining the right method, for the realisation of nibbāna, that is to say the four foundations of mindfulness.”
And:
Mahāparinibbāna Sutta wrote:214. “In whatsoever doctrine and discipline, Subhadda, the Noble Eightfold Path is not found, there a true recluse of the first, second, third, or fourth grade is not found. In whatsoever doctrine and discipline, Subhadda, the Noble Eightfold Path is found, there is found the true recluse of the first, second, third, and fourth grade. In this doctrine and discipline, Subhadda, is found the Noble Eightfold Path; in it alone is found the true recluse of the first, second, third, and fourth grade. Empty are the systems of other teachers — they are devoid of true recluses. In this one, Subhadda, as long as the monks live the perfect life, the world will not be bereft of Arahants.”
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one_awakening
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Re: Why do I keep hearing that Mindfulness is a Form of Meditation?

Post by one_awakening »

NuanceOfSuchness wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:37 pm From where are you quoting this from?
Is not a quote, it's just what I hear in the media.
“You only lose what you cling to”
SarathW
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Re: Why do I keep hearing that Mindfulness is a Form of Meditation?

Post by SarathW »

The Noble Eightfold Path has three broad categories.
Sila, Samadhi (say meditation) and Panna.
Samadhi includes Effort, mindfulness (Sati), and Samadhi.
These three are not mutually exclusive so they overlap.
When you practice mindfulness in you may experience the first Jhana at least.
However, you can't attain all Jhana by practicing mindfulness (vipassana)
You have to practice Samatha, to attain Jhana.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
pegembara
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Re: Why do I keep hearing that Mindfulness is a Form of Meditation?

Post by pegembara »

I consider "mindfulness" a form of practice on and off the cushion. In this way, one is constantly reminded of the truth of the teaching especially during the times of stress:-
"Bhikkhus, form is not-self. Were form self, then this form would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.' And since form is not-self, so it leads to affliction, and none can have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.'

"Bhikkhus, feeling is not-self...

"Bhikkhus, perception is not-self...

"Bhikkhus, determinations are not-self...

"Bhikkhus, consciousness is not self. Were consciousness self, then this consciousness would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of consciousness: 'Let my consciousness be thus, let my consciousness be not thus.' And since consciousness is not-self, so it leads to affliction, and none can have it of consciousness: 'Let my consciousness be thus, let my consciousness be not thus.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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one_awakening
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Re: Why do I keep hearing that Mindfulness is a Form of Meditation?

Post by one_awakening »

To me, when you're meditating you are practising mindfulness. The two cannot be separated.
“You only lose what you cling to”
cookiemonster
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Re: Why do I keep hearing that Mindfulness is a Form of Meditation?

Post by cookiemonster »

one_awakening wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:37 amIs it?
Right Mindfulness (the seventh factor of the Noble Eightfold Path) leads to RIght Meditation (the eighth factor); they are interconnected, but not one and the same.
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one_awakening
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Re: Why do I keep hearing that Mindfulness is a Form of Meditation?

Post by one_awakening »

Could one say Mindfulness is not a form of meditation, it just means to remember.
“You only lose what you cling to”
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rightviewftw
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Re: Why do I keep hearing that Mindfulness is a Form of Meditation?

Post by rightviewftw »

It's just due to a popularization of kayagatasati/anapanasati types of development. People are supposedly training something like 'mindfulness immersed in the body' and are developing 'the four foundations of mindfulness' and it becomes known as simply 'mindfulness meditation'.

Mindfulness in and by itself is not a meditation method, it is a power, a faculty and a factor. There are samadhi developmemts which lead to and have mindfulness as their reward, mindfulness is thus developed.

I will dump some text from abhidhamma and sutta;
That which is mindfulness, recollection, recall, mindfulness, remembrance, bearing (in mind), not losing, not confusing, mindfulness, the Faculty of Mindfulness, the Strength of Mindfulness, Right Mindfulness: this is called ‘mindfulness.’

The mindfulness which on that occasion is recollecting, calling back to mind; the mindfulness which is remembering, bearing in mind, the opposite of superficiality and of obliviousness; mindfulness as faculty, mindfulness as power, right mindfulness—this is the faculty of mindfulness that there then is. (abhihamma)

The Blessed One said, “Suppose, monks, that a large crowd of people comes thronging together, saying, ‘The beauty queen! The beauty queen!’ And suppose that the beauty queen is highly accomplished at singing & dancing, so that an even greater crowd comes thronging, saying, ‘The beauty queen is singing! The beauty queen is dancing!’ Then a man comes along, desiring life & shrinking from death, desiring pleasure & abhorring pain. They say to him, ‘Now look here, mister. You must take this bowl filled to the brim with oil and carry it on your head in between the great crowd & the beauty queen. A man with a raised sword will follow right behind you, and wherever you spill even a drop of oil, right there will he cut off your head.’ Now what do you think, monks: Will that man, not paying attention to the bowl of oil, let himself get distracted outside?”
“No, lord.”
“I have given you this parable to convey a meaning. The meaning is this: The bowl filled to the brim with oil stands for mindfulness immersed in the body. Thus you should train yourselves: ‘We will develop mindfulness immersed in the body. We will pursue it, hand it the reins and take it as a basis, give it a grounding, steady it, consolidate it, and undertake it well.’ That is how you should train yourselves.”

Suppose, monk, that there were a royal frontier fortress with strong walls & ramparts and six gates. In it would be a wise, experienced, intelligent gatekeeper to keep out those he didn't know and to let in those he did. A swift pair of messengers, coming from the east, would say to the gatekeeper, 'Where, my good man, is the commander of this fortress?' He would say, 'There he is, sirs, sitting in the central square.' The swift pair of messengers, delivering their accurate report to the commander of the fortress, would then go back by the route by which they had come. Then a swift pair of messengers, coming from the west... the north... the south, would say to the gatekeeper, 'Where, my good man, is the commander of this fortress?' He would say, 'There he is, sirs, sitting in the central square.' The swift pair of messengers, delivering their accurate report to the commander of the fortress, would then go back by the route by which they had come.

"I have given you this simile, monk, to convey a message. The message is this: The fortress stands for this body — composed of four elements, born of mother & father, nourished with rice & barley gruel, subject to constant rubbing & abrasion, to breaking & falling apart. The six gates stand for the six internal sense media. The gatekeeper stands for mindfulness. The swift pair of messengers stands for tranquillity (samatha) and insight (vipassana). The commander of the fortress stands for consciousness. The central square stands for the four great elements: the earth-property, the liquid-property, the fire-property, & the wind-property. The accurate report stands for Unbinding (nibbana). The route by which they had come stands for the noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration."
I believe there are more similes like this in the Sutta.

There is also this;
"All Dhamma have contact as their origination.

All Dhamma have feeling as their meeting place.

All Dhamma have concentration as their presiding state.

All Dhamma have mindfulness as their governing principle." An10.58
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
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one_awakening
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Re: Why do I keep hearing that Mindfulness is a Form of Meditation?

Post by one_awakening »

rightviewftw wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:34 am Mindfulness in and by itself is not a meditation method, it is a power, a faculty and a factor. There are samadhi developmemts which lead to and have mindfulness as their reward, mindfulness is thus developed.
Yes, this is my understanding.
“You only lose what you cling to”
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rightviewftw
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Re: Why do I keep hearing that Mindfulness is a Form of Meditation?

Post by rightviewftw »

one_awakening wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:42 am
rightviewftw wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:34 am Mindfulness in and by itself is not a meditation method, it is a power, a faculty and a factor. There are samadhi developmemts which lead to and have mindfulness as their reward, mindfulness is thus developed.
Yes, this is my understanding.
That's great, good for you and me both:)
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
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