Some thoughts on Satipaṭṭhāna, Ānāpānasati, the Satta Bojjhaṅgā and Jhāna

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Re: Some thoughts on Satipaṭṭhāna, Ānāpānasati, the Satta Bojjhaṅgā and Jhāna

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:26 am Ānāpānassati then cannot be developed fully unless one is fully aware and non-forgetful. This suggests that to successfully practice and develop ānāpānasati the meditator has to start with the mind. Looking at the 3rd tetrad of ānāpānasati we find: :roll:
Not really possible to calm the breath & manifest rapture with hindrances.
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:26 amThe question then arises, what does "liberating" the mind mean here? Firstly, we can say that it is not the result of the previous step of concentrating the mind in samādhi. We can say this because vimocayaṃ, the word being translated as "liberating", is the present participle of vimoceti. As such this stage cannot be a passive result of the prior stage.
Wrong logic of cause & effect. It is not the prior stage that is a condition for the next stage. It is the opposite. It is the cessation :idea: of the prior stage that is the condition for the next stage.

It seems u are illogically speculating in terms of dependent arising rather than in terms of dependent cessation. :smile: :sage:

Its like peeling an onion. The skin of the onion is not the condition for the core of the onion.

When the degree of "one-pointedness" associated with step 11 ceases, the mind then becomes open & bright; thus liberating itself from a type of samadhi that is unfit for Tetrad 4.
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Re: Some thoughts on Satipaṭṭhāna, Ānāpānasati, the Satta Bojjhaṅgā and Jhāna

Post by Nicolas »

(Not replying to anyone in particular.)
This may be relevant:
Bhikkhunupassaya Sutta (SN 47.10) wrote: Here, Ānanda, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. While he is contemplating the body in the body, there arises in him, based on the body, either a fever in the body or sluggishness of mind, or the mind is distracted outwardly. That bhikkhu should then direct his mind towards some inspiring sign. When he directs his mind towards some inspiring sign, gladness is born. When he is gladdened, rapture is born. When the mind is uplifted by rapture, the body becomes tranquil. One tranquil in body experiences happiness. The mind of one who is happy becomes concentrated. He reflects thus: ‘The purpose for the sake of which I directed my mind has been achieved. Let me now withdraw it.’ So he withdraws the mind and does not think or examine. He understands: ‘Without thought and examination, internally mindful, I am happy.’

Again, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating feelings in feelings … mind in mind … phenomena in phenomena, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. While he is contemplating phenomena in phenomena, there arises in him, based on phenomena, either a fever in the body or sluggishness of mind, or the mind is distracted outwardly. That bhikkhu should then direct his mind towards some inspiring sign. When he directs his mind towards some inspiring sign … He understands: ‘Without thought and examination, internally mindful, I am happy.’
(Could it be that one of the disagreements in this topic is connected to the quasi-semantic difference between this angle: "when a hindrance arises, then one is not practicing satipatthana in that moment, by definition", and this angle: "a hindrance arose during this satipatthana practice session" ? A hindrance is not part of satipatthana proper, but a hindrance can interrupt it.)
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Re: Some thoughts on Satipaṭṭhāna, Ānāpānasati, the Satta Bojjhaṅgā and Jhāna

Post by Ceisiwr »

A potential problem with some of my prior reasoning is that in the body section of the Ānāpānassati Sutta we find this:
“Bhikkhus, on whatever occasion a bhikkhu, breathing in long, understands: ‘I breathe in long,’ or breathing out long, understands: ‘I breathe out long’; breathing in short, understands: ‘I breathe in short,’ or breathing out short, understands: ‘I breathe out short’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in experiencing the whole body of breath’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out experiencing the whole body of breath’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in tranquillising the bodily formation’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out tranquillising the bodily formation’—on that occasion a bhikkhu abides contemplating the body as a body, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief for the world. I say that this is a certain body among the bodies, namely, in-breathing and out-breathing. That is why on that occasion a bhikkhu abides contemplating the body as a body, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief for the world."
This would have mindfulness of "‘I breathe in long,’ or breathing out long,..." occurring after the hindrances have been abandoned but prior to breathing in gladdening the mind, since the opening of the sutta has mindfulness of long and short breaths occurring before any training begins. Naturally this would mean there would be gladness of the mind before the active training of "breathing in and out gladdening the mind". However, a closer examination reveals that this is not necessarily the case:

“Bhikkhus, on whatever occasion a bhikkhu, breathing in long, understands: ‘I breathe in long,’ or breathing out long, understands: ‘I breathe out long’; ..."

"Yasmiṃ samaye, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dīghaṃ vā assasanto ‘dīghaṃ assasāmī’ti pajānāti, dīghaṃ vā passasanto ‘dīghaṃ passasāmī’tipajānāti;"

Pajānāti being comprised of the prefix "pa" which adds emphasis to "jānāti", or knowing/understanding. In other words, he really knows this. He has clear understanding and insight of this. Based on this reading then it would be possible to have the following situation:

Sits down > establishes mindfulness > mindful of long/short breath > breathes in abandoning the hindrances and gladdening the mind > ... pajānāti after all of ānāpānasati has been developed in full.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Some thoughts on Satipaṭṭhāna, Ānāpānasati, the Satta Bojjhaṅgā and Jhāna

Post by DooDoot »

Nicolas wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:18 am (Could it be that one of the disagreements in this topic is connected to the quasi-semantic difference between this angle: "when a hindrance arises, then one is not practicing satipatthana in that moment, by definition", and this angle: "a hindrance arose during this satipatthana practice session" ? A hindrance is not part of satipatthana proper, but a hindrance can interrupt it.)
Interesting sutta quote however it is from the Satipatthana rather than Anapanasati Samyutta. This topic is about the subversion of the lofty Anapanasati Sutta into the lower level of the Satipatthana Suttas. Is there an equivalent in the Anapanasati Samyutta?
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Some thoughts on Satipaṭṭhāna, Ānāpānasati, the Satta Bojjhaṅgā and Jhāna

Post by Ceisiwr »

Nicolas wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:18 am (Not replying to anyone in particular.)
This may be relevant:
Bhikkhunupassaya Sutta (SN 47.10) wrote: Here, Ānanda, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. While he is contemplating the body in the body, there arises in him, based on the body, either a fever in the body or sluggishness of mind, or the mind is distracted outwardly. That bhikkhu should then direct his mind towards some inspiring sign. When he directs his mind towards some inspiring sign, gladness is born. When he is gladdened, rapture is born. When the mind is uplifted by rapture, the body becomes tranquil. One tranquil in body experiences happiness. The mind of one who is happy becomes concentrated. He reflects thus: ‘The purpose for the sake of which I directed my mind has been achieved. Let me now withdraw it.’ So he withdraws the mind and does not think or examine. He understands: ‘Without thought and examination, internally mindful, I am happy.’

Again, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating feelings in feelings … mind in mind … phenomena in phenomena, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. While he is contemplating phenomena in phenomena, there arises in him, based on phenomena, either a fever in the body or sluggishness of mind, or the mind is distracted outwardly. That bhikkhu should then direct his mind towards some inspiring sign. When he directs his mind towards some inspiring sign … He understands: ‘Without thought and examination, internally mindful, I am happy.’
(Could it be that one of the disagreements in this topic is connected to the quasi-semantic difference between this angle: "when a hindrance arises, then one is not practicing satipatthana in that moment, by definition", and this angle: "a hindrance arose during this satipatthana practice session" ? A hindrance is not part of satipatthana proper, but a hindrance can interrupt it.)
It's more about when are the hindrances abandoned in relation to ānāpānasati and at which stage does the meditator come in at, and so how do they progress with the meditation?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Some thoughts on Satipaṭṭhāna, Ānāpānasati, the Satta Bojjhaṅgā and Jhāna

Post by Ceisiwr »

Nicolas wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:18 am (Not replying to anyone in particular.)
This may be relevant:
Bhikkhunupassaya Sutta (SN 47.10) wrote: Here, Ānanda, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. While he is contemplating the body in the body, there arises in him, based on the body, either a fever in the body or sluggishness of mind, or the mind is distracted outwardly. That bhikkhu should then direct his mind towards some inspiring sign. When he directs his mind towards some inspiring sign, gladness is born. When he is gladdened, rapture is born. When the mind is uplifted by rapture, the body becomes tranquil. One tranquil in body experiences happiness. The mind of one who is happy becomes concentrated. He reflects thus: ‘The purpose for the sake of which I directed my mind has been achieved. Let me now withdraw it.’ So he withdraws the mind and does not think or examine. He understands: ‘Without thought and examination, internally mindful, I am happy.’

Again, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating feelings in feelings … mind in mind … phenomena in phenomena, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. While he is contemplating phenomena in phenomena, there arises in him, based on phenomena, either a fever in the body or sluggishness of mind, or the mind is distracted outwardly. That bhikkhu should then direct his mind towards some inspiring sign. When he directs his mind towards some inspiring sign … He understands: ‘Without thought and examination, internally mindful, I am happy.’
(Could it be that one of the disagreements in this topic is connected to the quasi-semantic difference between this angle: "when a hindrance arises, then one is not practicing satipatthana in that moment, by definition", and this angle: "a hindrance arose during this satipatthana practice session" ? A hindrance is not part of satipatthana proper, but a hindrance can interrupt it.)
Part of the discussion is also about the development of the satta bojjhaṅgā. The Buddha states that for one who is rapturous, body and mind become tranquil. The linear progression model however has bodily tranquillity occurring before rapture, followed by mental tranquillity which has been separated from it:

“In one who has aroused energy, unworldly rapture arises. On whatever occasion unworldly rapture arises in a bhikkhu who has aroused energy— on that occasion the rapture enlightenment factor is aroused in him, and he develops it, and by development it comes to fulfilment in him.

“In one who is rapturous, the body and the mind become tranquil. On whatever occasion the body and the mind become tranquil in a bhikkhu who is rapturous—on that occasion the tranquillity enlightenment factor is aroused in him, and he develops it, and by development it comes to fulfilment in him.

1. Breathing long (Knowing Breath)
2. Breathing short (Knowing Breath)
3. Experiencing the whole body
4. Tranquillising the bodily activities (bodily tranquility)
5. Experiencing rapture (rapture)
6. Experiencing bliss
7. Experiencing mental activities
8. Tranquillising mental activities (mental tranquility)

Satta Bojjhaṅgā Progression

Rapture > tranquility of body and mind

Linear Ānāpānasati Progression

Tranquility of body > rapture > few more steps > tranquility of mind

So far it seems reversed, with a gap between bodily and mental tranquility too.

What are your thoughts?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Some thoughts on Satipaṭṭhāna, Ānāpānasati, the Satta Bojjhaṅgā and Jhāna

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:36 am having put away covetousness and grief for the world.
The above is found in each tetrad.
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:36 amthe sutta has mindfulness [knowing] of long and short breaths occurring before any training begins.
"Training" means "Three Trainings". In steps 1 & 2, there is no real training in higher morality or higher wisdom because there is no seeing of the Noble Truths, which starts at Step 3, which is called "experiencing all kaya". "All kaya" refers to the breath kaya, rupa kaya and nama kaya and how they condition eachother. Step 3 is vipassana. Steps 1 & 2 are merely only clumsy beginner's concentration.
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:36 amNaturally this would mean there would be gladness of the mind before the active training of "breathing in and out gladdening the mind".
There is always gladdness of mind when there is dhammic success. However, in Step 10, gladness is the primary or dominant object of the mind.

In other words, during the 1st tetrad, although the mind may have gladness, breathing is the dominant object and gladness will be in the background. But when it comes to step 10, gladness is the dominant object and breathing is in the background.

The cause for the manifestation or full experience of gladness in step 10 is: (i) cessation of rapture & happiness; and (ii) cessation of underlying defilements that are revealed in step 9.

Again, use the Ajahn Brahm metaphor of peeling an onion. When breath calms, the underlying rapture & happiness reveal themselves. When rapture then happiness calm, any underlying moods or defilements reveal themselves (such as underlying greed or aversion towards rapture). Then when underlying mood or defilement ends when step 9 ends, the underlying gladness reveals itself. Plus there is arising of gladness due to ceasing of step 9 because step 9 is has unwholesome states (even though they do not hinder concentration).
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:36 amHowever, a closer examination reveals that this is not necessarily the case:

“Bhikkhus, on whatever occasion a bhikkhu, breathing in long, understands: ‘I breathe in long,’ or breathing out long, understands: ‘I breathe out long’; ..."

"Yasmiṃ samaye, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dīghaṃ vā assasanto ‘dīghaṃ assasāmī’ti pajānāti, dīghaṃ vā passasanto ‘dīghaṃ passasāmī’tipajānāti;"

Pajānāti being comprised of the prefix "pa" which adds emphasis to "jānāti", or knowing/understanding. In other words, he really knows this. He has clear understanding and insight of this. Based on this reading then it would be possible to have the following situation:
I question the above. My impression is "pajānāti" is a lower level of knowing, compared to, say, sampajana, which is more thorough. Note "pajānāti" is only used in steps 1 & 2.
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:36 amSits down > establishes mindfulness > mindful [knowing] of long/short breath > breathes in abandoning the hindrances and gladdening the mind > ... pajānāti after all of ānāpānasati has been developed in full.
Mindfulness is not a synonym of pajānāti. There is no such thing as "mindfulness of breathing". Its hard to accept 99.9% of Buddhist are wrong about the meaning of "anapanasati". :smile: The probability of a Buddhist knowing the meaning of "anapanasati" is about the same probability of dying from Covid-19 (around 0.06 to 0.1%).
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Re: Some thoughts on Satipaṭṭhāna, Ānāpānasati, the Satta Bojjhaṅgā and Jhāna

Post by Ceisiwr »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:01 am
The above is found in each tetrad.
Yes indeed.
"Training" means "Three Trainings". In steps 1 & 2, there is no real training in higher morality or higher wisdom because there is no seeing of the Noble Truths, which starts at Step 3, which is called "experiencing all kaya". "All kaya" refers the breath kaya, rupa kaya and nama kaya and how they condition eachother. Steps 1 & 2 are merely only clumsy concentration.
I agree. I rather like the Paṭisambhidāmagga for explaining that.
There is always gladdness of mind when there is dhammic success. However, in Step 10, gladness is the primary or dominant object of the mind.

In other words, during the 1st tetrad, although the mind may have gladness, breathing is the dominant object and gladness will be in the background. But when it comes to step 10, gladness is the dominant object and breathing is in the background.
The "mindfulness with" as opposed to "of"?
The cause for the manifestation or full experience of gladness in step 10 is: (i) cessation of rapture & happiness; and (ii) cessation of underlying defilements that are revealed in step 9.

Again, use the Ajahn Brahm metaphor of peeling an onion. When breath calms, the underlying rapture & happiness reveal themselves. When rapture then happiness calm, any underlying moods or defilements reveal themselves (such as underlying greed or aversion towards rapture). Then when underlying mood or defilement ends when step 9 ends, the underlying gladness reveals itself. Plus there is arising of gladness due to ceasing of step 9.
Hmm but we always find joy proceeding rapture and sukha. For example:
So, Ānanda, the purpose and benefit of skillful ethics is not having regrets. Joy is the purpose and benefit of not having regrets. Rapture is the purpose and benefit of joy. Tranquility is the purpose and benefit of rapture. Bliss is the purpose and benefit of tranquility. Immersion is the purpose and benefit of bliss. Truly knowing and seeing is the purpose and benefit of immersion.
https://suttacentral.net/an11.1/en/sujato

How do you explain the reversal of the seven factors?
I question the above. My impression is "pajānāti" is a lower level of knowing, compared to, say, sampajana, which is more thorough. Note "pajānāti" is only used in steps 1 & 2.
I hadn't noticed that it was just in step 1 & 2. Interesting. It seems that pajānāti is a step above jānāti but a step below sampajāna.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Some thoughts on Satipaṭṭhāna, Ānāpānasati, the Satta Bojjhaṅgā and Jhāna

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:26 am The "mindfulness with" as opposed to "of"?
Say you are successfully watching the breathing and you or the mind thinks: "I am the best meditator in the world". At this point, if there is mindfulness, mindfulness brings sampajana and recollects: "I am the best" is a self-view, is conceit and should be abandoned.

Therefore, mindfulness is doing more than merely governing the mind so it knows breathing. Mindfulness also ensures there is right view while/when/with watching breathing.

:smile:
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Re: Some thoughts on Satipaṭṭhāna, Ānāpānasati, the Satta Bojjhaṅgā and Jhāna

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:26 am Hmm but we always find joy proceeding rapture and sukha. For example:
Not always. Only sometimes, in a different context. This said, yes, the non-mentioning of joy before rapture in MN 118 does not necessarily mean there is no joy prior to step 5. MN 118 is about the 16 salient dominant meditation objects rather than about peripheral objects.
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:26 amI hadn't noticed that it was just in step 1 & 2. Interesting. It seems that pajānāti is a step above jānāti but a step below sampajāna.
Maybe. I am not sure. I did research this once, below, but never came to a conclusion. I recall i found a sutta that debunked my theory below:
Sampajana appears to be from the Pali words saṃ & pajāna (cp. pajānāti). It appears to mean to 'thoroughly' or 'completely understand' something or a situation.

Suttas such as MN 118, AN 3.121 and SN 12.28 indicate mere pajānāti might be a level of knowing or recognition that is not as complete as sampajana.

For example, in MN 118, pajānāti is only used with the most basic practise, namely, knowing long & short breathing. In AN 3.121, pajānāti is used for the recognition of the arising of defilements (which means the mind does not have thorough understanding; if defilements are arising). In SN 12.28, pajānāti of Dependent Origination is called 'one endowed with a trainee’s knowledge’; ‘one who has entered the stream of the teaching’. Thus, mere pajānāti appears different to saṃ + pajāna, namely, "thorough" or "complete" understanding.

While the suttas do not explain much about sampajana, when SN 47.35 briefly defines 'sampajana', it uses the word "vidita" (pp. of vindati), which means "to understand" or "understood", as Bhikkhu Bodhi appeared to properly translate as "understood", as follows:
And how, bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu exercise clear comprehension? Here, bhikkhus, for a bhikkhu feelings are understood as they arise, understood as they remain present, understood as they pass away. Thoughts are understood as they arise, understood as they remain present, understood as they pass away. Perceptions are understood as they arise, understood as they remain present, understood as they pass away. It is in this way, bhikkhus, that a bhikkhu exercises clear comprehension.

Bhikkhu Bodhi
It appears alternate translations that seek to emphasise the Western term "bare awareness" cannot be "sampajana". For example, a small child ignorantly looking non-judgmentally at the ocean with bare awareness and thus not understanding the dangers of the ocean cannot have "sampajana".

For example, in MN 66 and SN 12.17, the word "vidita" means "to understand" rather than merely "experience with bare awareness", as follows:
Because I understand the diversity of faculties as it applies to this person.
Indriyavemattatā hi me, udāyi, imasmiṃ puggale viditā.

MN 66
However, I have recognized individual differences.
Api ca mayā puggalavemattatā viditā”ti.

SN 12.17
Sampajana appears well and properly explained by Ajahn Jayasaro on You Tube or in Ajahn Buddhadasa's Part II. The Use of Dhamma.

In conclusion, 'sampajana', as 'thorough' or 'complete understanding', appears to indicate a level of understanding that results in no hindrances or defilements when practising and entering the noble path.
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Re: Some thoughts on Satipaṭṭhāna, Ānāpānasati, the Satta Bojjhaṅgā and Jhāna

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:26 am How do you explain the reversal of the seven factors?
Sorry. Kindly explain the above. Thanks
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Re: Some thoughts on Satipaṭṭhāna, Ānāpānasati, the Satta Bojjhaṅgā and Jhāna

Post by Ceisiwr »

There seems to be a slight discrepancy that might help here. There is a slight difference in the pali between steps 4 & 8 and the passaddhi bojjhaṅgā:

‘I shall breathe in tranquillising the bodily formation’; he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out tranquillising the bodily formation.’
‘passambhayaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘passambhayaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ passasissāmī’ti sikkhati. (1)

‘I shall breathe in tranquillising the mental formation’; he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out tranquillising the mental formation.’
‘passambhayaṃ cittasaṅkhāraṃ assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘passambhayaṃ cittasaṅkhāraṃ passasissāmī’ti sikkhati.

“In one who is rapturous, the body and the mind become tranquil."
Pītimanassa kāyopi passambhati, cittampi passambhati.

So it seems that a strictly linear method of practice is compatible with the linear development of the satta bojjhaṅgā. In steps 4 & 8 it is the bodily and mental formations that are being tranquilised, whilst with the satta bojjhaṅgā rapture leads to the tranquility of the body and mind. That is to say, the whole body and mind and not just the formations of body and mind.

It would seem then that my OP was wrong indeed. Still, there is the final problem of how we go from liberating the mind to contemplating impermanence, fading of lust, cessation and letting go. Can these be said to follow logically and naturally from when the mind has been well liberated?
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Some thoughts on Satipaṭṭhāna, Ānāpānasati, the Satta Bojjhaṅgā and Jhāna

Post by Ceisiwr »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:00 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:26 am How do you explain the reversal of the seven factors?
Sorry. Kindly explain the above. Thanks
Never mind. I hadn't fully compared the pali, which lead to the confusion.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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DooDoot
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Re: Some thoughts on Satipaṭṭhāna, Ānāpānasati, the Satta Bojjhaṅgā and Jhāna

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:03 amStill, there is the final problem of how we go from liberating the mind to contemplating impermanence, fading of lust, cessation and letting go. Can these be said to follow logically and naturally from when the mind has been well liberated?
As I have suggested a number of times, the 16 experiences of Anapanasati appear to be about the dominant sense object. In other words, at step 1, the impermanence of the long-breathing may be sensed however the dominant object in step 1 is the long-breathing rather than impermanence.

At step 12, all of those previous objects that were the dominant meditation object impinging upon the mind have now gone. The mind is liberated from dominant objects. Thus, the new dominant object becomes impermanence itself.

In short, after step 12, the mind becomes aware again of breathing, feelings, etc, but everything is so refined that impermanence itself becomes the dominant object and the things that are impermanent are in the background.

Compare to watching a movie. The dominant object of a movie is the scenery or person. But of the movie is played in fast motion, the impermanence becomes the dominant experience and the discrete objects fade into the background.
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Some thoughts on Satipaṭṭhāna, Ānāpānasati, the Satta Bojjhaṅgā and Jhāna

Post by Ceisiwr »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:11 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:03 amStill, there is the final problem of how we go from liberating the mind to contemplating impermanence, fading of lust, cessation and letting go. Can these be said to follow logically and naturally from when the mind has been well liberated?
As I have suggested a number of times, the 16 experiences of Anapanasati appear to be about the dominant sense object. In other words, at step 1, the impermanence of the long-breathing may be sensed however the dominant object in step 1 is the long-breathing rather than impermanence.

At step 12, all of those previous objects that were the dominant meditation object impinging upon the mind have now gone. The mind is liberated from dominant objects. Thus, the new dominant object becomes impermanence itself.
But if the mind is liberated from the taints, how can there be contemplation of the fading of lust, cessation and letting go in the next tetrad? Possibly embers?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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