MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

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frank k
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MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

Post by frank k »

MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... sutta.html
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Re: MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

Post by coconut »

The Buddha is quite explicit that you can see each jhana factor as impermanent and stressful which leads to calming that jhana factor and into the next jhana.
“The thought occurred to me: ‘What if, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, I were to enter & remain in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation—internal assurance.’ But my heart didn’t leap up at being without directed thought, didn’t grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace. The thought occurred to me: ‘What is the cause, what is the reason, why my heart doesn’t leap up at being without directed thought, doesn’t grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace?’ Then the thought occurred to me: ‘I haven’t seen the drawback of directed thought; I haven’t pursued that theme. I haven’t understood the reward of being without directed thought; I haven’t familiarized myself with it. That’s why my heart doesn’t leap up at being without directed thought, doesn’t grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace.’

“Then the thought occurred to me: ‘If, having seen the drawback of directed thought, I were to pursue that theme; and if, having understood the reward of being without directed thought, I were to familiarize myself with it, there’s the possibility that my heart would leap up at being without directed thought, grow confident, steadfast, & firm, seeing it as peace.’

“So at a later time, having seen the drawback of directed thought, I pursued that theme; having understood the reward of being without directed thought, I familiarized myself with it. My heart leaped up at being without directed thought, grew confident, steadfast, & firm, seeing it as peace. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, I entered & remained in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation—internal assurance.

Rinse and repeat until one arrives at the cessation of perception, just like MN 111
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Ceisiwr
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Re: MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

Post by Ceisiwr »

coconut wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:01 pm The Buddha is quite explicit that you can see each jhana factor as impermanent and stressful which leads to calming that jhana factor and into the next jhana.
Your quote doesn’t say that happens whilst in Jhana. The traditional understanding, which is supported by the suttas, is that it is upon leaving each Jhana that its drawbacks are reviewed.

“vivicceva kāmehi”

kāmā is plural:
kāma, m. [ts., cf. BHSD, SWTF, Encyclop. of Bud-
dhism VI, 1 1996 s.v.; Hôb. s.v. ai], 1. (mostly in sg.)
wish, desire, pleasure; 2. (in pl.) the objects of sensual
pleasure viz. rūpa, sadda, gandha, rasa, phoṭṭhabba,
cf. kāmaguṇa,


Critical Pali Dictionary
“vivicceva kāmehi”

“Secluded from the 5 senses.”

The translation of “secluded from sensuality/sensual pleasures” is based on Abhidhamma definitions.
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti
“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
coconut
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Re: MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

Post by coconut »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:20 pm
coconut wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:01 pm The Buddha is quite explicit that you can see each jhana factor as impermanent and stressful which leads to calming that jhana factor and into the next jhana.
Your quote doesn’t say that happens whilst in Jhana. The traditional understanding, which is supported by the suttas, is that it is upon leaving each Jhana that its drawbacks are reviewed.

“vivicceva kāmehi”

kāmā is plural:
kāma, m. [ts., cf. BHSD, SWTF, Encyclop. of Bud-
dhism VI, 1 1996 s.v.; Hôb. s.v. ai], 1. (mostly in sg.)
wish, desire, pleasure; 2. (in pl.) the objects of sensual
pleasure viz. rūpa, sadda, gandha, rasa, phoṭṭhabba,
cf. kāmaguṇa,


Critical Pali Dictionary
“vivicceva kāmehi”

“Secluded from the 5 senses.”

The translation of “secluded from sensuality/sensual pleasures” is based on Abhidhamma definitions.
The sutta does though.
With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, I entered & remained in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation—internal assurance.

As I remained there, I was beset with attention to perceptions dealing with directed thought. That was an affliction for me. Just as pain arises as an affliction for a healthy person, even so the attention to perceptions dealing with directed thought that beset me was an affliction for me.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

Post by Ceisiwr »

coconut wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:27 pm
The sutta does though.
Do you have a link or sutta reference?
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti
“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
coconut
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Re: MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

Post by coconut »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:34 pm
coconut wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:27 pm
The sutta does though.
Do you have a link or sutta reference?
I don't usually care to help disrespectful arrogant people, but I'll do it for your audience, https://suttacentral.net/an9.41/en/thanissaro
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Ceisiwr
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Re: MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

Post by Ceisiwr »

coconut wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:27 pm
The sutta does though.
With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, I entered & remained in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation—internal assurance.

As I remained there, I was beset with attention to perceptions dealing with directed thought. That was an affliction for me. Just as pain arises as an affliction for a healthy person, even so the attention to perceptions dealing with directed thought that beset me was an affliction for me.
It would be interesting to look at the grammar of the Pali, but even on an English language basis this doesn’t show that this occurs whilst in Jhana. It reads as reviewing, after the fact. I also wonder how the Jhana lite folks get around how any thinking or reviewing can occur at all in the 2nd Jhana onwards since there is no vitaka-vicāra there, no thinking or reviewing (using Jhana lite definitions) and so no dhamma vicaya (and so, no insight)?
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti
“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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Ceisiwr
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Re: MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

Post by Ceisiwr »

From your same sutta:
With the complete transcending of perceptions of form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] ‘Infinite space,’ I entered & remained in the dimension of the infinitude of space.

“As I remained there, I was beset with attention to perceptions dealing with forms. That was an affliction for me. Just as pain arises as an affliction for a healthy person, even so the attention to perceptions dealing with forms that beset me was an affliction for me.
Are we to believe that there are still perceptions of forms whilst in the attainment of infinite space? This sutta reads like reviewing problems that knock one out of x meditation. That is to say, one is reviewing what went wrong when out of the meditation (since they have been knocked out of it by x).

Interestingly the Pali repeats “saññāmanasikārā”, as if attention to multiple perceptions are part of what is going wrong.
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti
“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
coconut
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Re: MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

Post by coconut »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:39 pm
coconut wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:27 pm
The sutta does though.
With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, I entered & remained in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation—internal assurance.

As I remained there, I was beset with attention to perceptions dealing with directed thought. That was an affliction for me. Just as pain arises as an affliction for a healthy person, even so the attention to perceptions dealing with directed thought that beset me was an affliction for me.
It would be interesting to look at the grammar of the Pali, but even on an English language basis this doesn’t show that this occurs whilst in Jhana. It reads as reviewing, after the fact. I also wonder how the Jhana lite folks get around how any thinking or reviewing can occur at all in the 2nd Jhana onwards since there is no vitaka-vicāra there, no thinking or reviewing (using Jhana lite definitions) and so no dhamma vicaya (and so, no insight)?
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:13 pm From your same sutta:
With the complete transcending of perceptions of form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] ‘Infinite space,’ I entered & remained in the dimension of the infinitude of space.

“As I remained there, I was beset with attention to perceptions dealing with forms. That was an affliction for me. Just as pain arises as an affliction for a healthy person, even so the attention to perceptions dealing with forms that beset me was an affliction for me.
Are we to believe that there are still perceptions of forms whilst in the attainment of infinite space? This sutta reads like reviewing problems that knock one out of x meditation. That is to say, one is reviewing what went wrong when out of the meditation (since they have been knocked out of it by x).

Interestingly the Pali repeats “saññāmanasikārā”, as if attention to multiple perceptions are part of what is going wrong.
I don't see how that negates the fact that he was able to perceive that factor as stressful while in jhana, and turn away from it instead of clinging to it. Obviously he was able to discern it as stressful, which implies that discernment doesn't happen at the vitakka-vicara level but at the consciousness level.
"'Consciousness, consciousness': Thus is it said. To what extent, friend, is it said to be 'consciousness'?"

"'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus, friend, it is said to be 'consciousness.' And what does it cognize? It cognizes 'pleasant.' It cognizes 'painful.' It cognizes 'neither painful nor pleasant.' 'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus it is said to be 'consciousness.'"

"Discernment & consciousness, friend: Are these qualities conjoined or disjoined? Is it possible, having separated them one from the other, to delineate the difference between them?"

"Discernment & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It's not possible, having separated them one from the other, to delineate the difference between them. For what one discerns, that one cognizes. What one cognizes, that one discerns. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference between them."

"Discernment & consciousness, friend: What is the difference between these qualities that are conjoined, not disjoined?"

"Discernment & consciousness, friend: Of these qualities that are conjoined, not disjoined, discernment is to be developed, consciousness is to be fully comprehended."[1]
- MN 43

One is able to discern pain before mentally verbalizing it.
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Re: MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

Post by confusedlayman »

lite jhana is stepping stone to full hardcore jhana.. everyone dont stop till u attain hardcore jhana...

do you want to be brahma of lower level or higher level?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

Post by BrokenBones »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:03 am lite jhana is stepping stone to full hardcore jhana.. everyone dont stop till u attain hardcore jhana...

do you want to be brahma of lower level or higher level?
Oh dear 🥴

'Hardcore jhana'... the domain of the senseless.
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Re: MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

Post by confusedlayman »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:55 am
confusedlayman wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:03 am lite jhana is stepping stone to full hardcore jhana.. everyone dont stop till u attain hardcore jhana...

do you want to be brahma of lower level or higher level?
Oh dear 🥴

'Hardcore jhana'... the domain of the senseless.
because buddha didn't appreciate sense pleasure
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
BrokenBones
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Re: MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

Post by BrokenBones »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:13 am
BrokenBones wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:55 am
confusedlayman wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:03 am lite jhana is stepping stone to full hardcore jhana.. everyone dont stop till u attain hardcore jhana...

do you want to be brahma of lower level or higher level?
Oh dear 🥴

'Hardcore jhana'... the domain of the senseless.
because buddha didn't appreciate sense pleasure
Exactly... or rather sense desire... not the senses... otherwise we could just pluck out our eyes, chop off our noses, burst our eardrums and develop whole body hypoesthesia and we'd be five sixths there... place your whole attention on an imagined silver orb and bob's your uncle. :zzz:

Edit... forgot to pull out our tongues 🤔
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Re: MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

Post by Inedible »

Mostly I just want to finally attain the kind of jhana I can do every day and use as a support to become a Stream Enterer. Once I have even a little jhana I can work with it to get better jhana. It seems to be a minimum to make lasting progress rather than just random flashes of spontaneous experiences which immediately dissipate and never add up to anything.
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Re: MN 111 jhana 'lite' vs. jhana 'heavy', sutta vs. vism. 'jhana'.

Post by auto »

Inedible wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:23 pm Mostly I just want to finally attain the kind of jhana I can do every day and use as a support to become a Stream Enterer. Once I have even a little jhana I can work with it to get better jhana. It seems to be a minimum to make lasting progress rather than just random flashes of spontaneous experiences which immediately dissipate and never add up to anything.
Mindfulness of death can prompt you to have a scenario what heart(ceto) plays through and it causes liberating cittasankhara of sadness which can be ceased you can't repeat it since the molecules in body reacted or migrated.

Mind can be developed to discern mental happenings better.
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