Take off your spectacles

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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pitithefool
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Re: Take off your spectacles

Post by pitithefool »

thepea wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:57 am
Like I said I’m 100% certain of the technique of Buddha, I know the path to nibbana.
I’m not arguing that this method is superior over mahasi sayadaw method or another method.
If they take you inside and allow you to know the truth within that’s great and that’s pure.
I also realize that one does not require an organization to continue with their journey.
I just cannot comprehend how this organization is discriminating at the moment. How they have allowed maras rules into their teachings to corrupt them.
This seems crystal clear to me and it goes against everything the Buddha teaches.
All the stories of preservation and purity and the global dhammists are allowing mara in so easily, basically zero resistance.
I would like to comprehend that there is a greater purpose over just survival of money and infrastructure.
I mean 100% no at all cost do you compromise the dhamma teachings and delivery. Especially when Mara is known to take and never give back(greed).
They basically gave the bunch of Keys to Mara.
I would suggest reading the Madhupindika sutta, MN 18, as it describes what's called papanca, which are thoughts, much like you seem to be having, that lead to conflict.

Here's a link. I would also suggest reading the forward if you have time.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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thepea
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Re: Take off your spectacles

Post by thepea »

pitithefool wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:52 pm
thepea wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:57 am
Like I said I’m 100% certain of the technique of Buddha, I know the path to nibbana.
I’m not arguing that this method is superior over mahasi sayadaw method or another method.
If they take you inside and allow you to know the truth within that’s great and that’s pure.
I also realize that one does not require an organization to continue with their journey.
I just cannot comprehend how this organization is discriminating at the moment. How they have allowed maras rules into their teachings to corrupt them.
This seems crystal clear to me and it goes against everything the Buddha teaches.
All the stories of preservation and purity and the global dhammists are allowing mara in so easily, basically zero resistance.
I would like to comprehend that there is a greater purpose over just survival of money and infrastructure.
I mean 100% no at all cost do you compromise the dhamma teachings and delivery. Especially when Mara is known to take and never give back(greed).
They basically gave the bunch of Keys to Mara.
I would suggest reading the Madhupindika sutta, MN 18, as it describes what's called papanca, which are thoughts, much like you seem to be having, that lead to conflict.

Here's a link. I would also suggest reading the forward if you have time.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
I would suggest looking at greed, and CLEARLY SEEING what is going on within this tradition.
Goenka knew this, which is why he did not pass on to an individual to teach in his place. Only push buttons and answer questions in a way previously set out by him.
He was wise indeed, and it is crystal clear to me.
Discrimination is rampant in this tradition, the course is pure other than the health protocols in place. This taints the dhamma and ruins it, they are no longer teaching dhamma. Such a simple thing as a slave rag over the mouth and nostrils and Mara has crippled goenkas hard work.
It will collapse soon and all the centres will decay into dust. This tradition is finished.
I see this clear as day, so much weakness and corruption.
I am a purist, I have no choice but to call this as I see it. I gave them every opportunity to cleanse. They choose greed.
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pitithefool
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Re: Take off your spectacles

Post by pitithefool »

thepea wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:58 pm
I would suggest looking at greed, and CLEARLY SEEING what is going on within this tradition.
Goenka knew this, which is why he did not pass on to an individual to teach in his place. Only push buttons and answer questions in a way previously set out by him.
He was wise indeed, and it is crystal clear to me.
Discrimination is rampant in this tradition, the course is pure other than the health protocols in place. This taints the dhamma and ruins it, they are no longer teaching dhamma. Such a simple thing as a slave rag over the mouth and nostrils and Mara has crippled goenkas hard work.
It will collapse soon and all the centres will decay into dust. This tradition is finished.
I see this clear as day, so much weakness and corruption.
I am a purist, I have no choice but to call this as I see it. I gave them every opportunity to cleanse. They choose greed.
Hmm...

How about the kakacupama sutta, MN 21?

"Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves."
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thepea
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Re: Take off your spectacles

Post by thepea »

pitithefool wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:54 am
thepea wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:58 pm
I would suggest looking at greed, and CLEARLY SEEING what is going on within this tradition.
Goenka knew this, which is why he did not pass on to an individual to teach in his place. Only push buttons and answer questions in a way previously set out by him.
He was wise indeed, and it is crystal clear to me.
Discrimination is rampant in this tradition, the course is pure other than the health protocols in place. This taints the dhamma and ruins it, they are no longer teaching dhamma. Such a simple thing as a slave rag over the mouth and nostrils and Mara has crippled goenkas hard work.
It will collapse soon and all the centres will decay into dust. This tradition is finished.
I see this clear as day, so much weakness and corruption.
I am a purist, I have no choice but to call this as I see it. I gave them every opportunity to cleanse. They choose greed.
Hmm...

How about the kakacupama sutta, MN 21?

"Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves."
You simply cannot force health measures upon people. Choice MUST remain, otherwise it is a trespass.
Goenka is dead and in his absence the Vipassana centres have ventured into dangerous territory in the hopes of retaining their centres and fear of loss. Let them turn to dust before a trespass upon the sanctity of ones inalienable rights and freedoms.
Buddha taught man to be free, you have to be willing to lose it all. You cannot take anything with you.
Mara has attacked and the centres have caved to this fear of loss. They are done, they lack purity, this hostile corporate takeover has exposed every weakness. You really see the gift that goenka possessed and how rare an individual like this is. There simply is no one with the wisdom to navigate through this political shitstorm.
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Dan74
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Re: Take off your spectacles

Post by Dan74 »

You mean to say that there is no one there who see it the way you do. This isn't necessarily the same as "having the wisdom".
_/|\_
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Take off your spectacles

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Sila-fulfillment cannot be achieved by meditators breaching rational guidelines set by the centres which are meant to be complied with rational guidelines demanded by the local health authorities.

On the other hand, arrangements for those 'allergic' to masks may be organized by the well-equipped centers, if there is any such ones during these resource-intensive covid related situations, as long as the local health guidelines are not breached.

And, as a valid last resort, according to what I read many years back, if I remember right, there always is an option like: ... in case of any difficulty reaching for the meditation centers, old-students can always take a Goenkaji way of silent retreat at home or any suitable place, following the rules and schedules encountered & practiced in previous retreats.

:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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retrofuturist
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Re: Take off your spectacles

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:14 am Sila-fulfillment cannot be achieved by meditators breaching rational guidelines set by the centres which are meant to be complied with rational guidelines demanded by the local health authorities.
Please point to the Sutta that substantiates this position.

I didn't realise that sila means compliance.

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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pitithefool
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Re: Take off your spectacles

Post by pitithefool »

retrofuturist wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:07 am Greetings
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:14 am Sila-fulfillment cannot be achieved by meditators breaching rational guidelines set by the centres which are meant to be complied with rational guidelines demanded by the local health authorities.
Please point to the Sutta that substantiates this position.

I didn't realise that sila means compliance.

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
No, Sila does not mean compliance.

If I may, the kernel of all ethics is to be discerned as something like "working for the non-harm of oneself and others".
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Take off your spectacles

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

retrofuturist wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:07 am Greetings
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:14 am Sila-fulfillment cannot be achieved by meditators breaching rational guidelines set by the centres which are meant to be complied with rational guidelines demanded by the local health authorities.
Please point to the Sutta that substantiates this position.

I didn't realise that sila means compliance.

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)

Please kindly refresh memory on the Code of Displine of Goenkaji's retreats, and search various non-transgressions in Patisambhidamagga.

:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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retrofuturist
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Re: Take off your spectacles

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings SDA,
retrofuturist wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:07 am Please point to the Sutta that substantiates this position.
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:19 pm Please kindly refresh memory on the Code of Displine of Goenkaji's retreats
That's a bit of a non-answer since Goenka doesn't define anything in the Dhamma. That would be like saying that Dhamma Wheel's Terms Of Service defines Sila. :roll:
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:19 pm , and search various non-transgressions in Patisambhidamagga.
Another non answer.

It sounds like your earlier comment that "Sila-fulfillment cannot be achieved by meditators breaching rational guidelines set by the centres which are meant to be complied with rational guidelines demanded by the local health authorities" is unsubstantiated nonsense and that you're trying to shoehorn your own personal views and values into the Dhamma.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
thepea
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Re: Take off your spectacles

Post by thepea »

Dan74 wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:40 am You mean to say that there is no one there who see it the way you do. This isn't necessarily the same as "having the wisdom".
This is precisely the questions I have asked the acharias about my practice.
We have all done the same practice of seeing things clearly.
Now why am I able to see that this is a hostile corporate takeover so clearly and everyone in the centre refuses to dialog with me and they just quote the local covid-19 rhetoric and if I press for discussion they simply hang up?
No discussion is allowed, no rational dialog is allowed to take place. I went there hands clasped begging for an answer that explains why I. M so different in opinion to the centre narrative and could anyone e plain to me why this is so?
Nothing.....they refuse to talk.
This alone is evidence of a deep deception taking place, but I also have 12 months of evidence from directly challenging these Covid health restrictions and the politicians and corporations and police inability to logically follow written law or explain the reasoning.
I must conclude that Mara has breached this organization and is operating from within at a deep level.
Akin to most Buddhist and other religious institutions.
The course as left by goenka is pure, but the staff in charge through medical tyranny have found a way to breach the sanctity and purity of this tradition.
I simply must as my duty speak out against this as I see it.
My hope is. O done will be able to explain rationally to me why those practicing in this tradition for so many years how they could stoop to this level of deceipt and stab goenka in the back.
I simply cannot speak of this tradition with one ounce of respect at current.
I have however met one minister in the Christian church who has remained in purity and refuses to bow to greed or fear. This is a man, he defies the lockdown measures and stands open to his flock and preaches the word of god(dhamma).
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Take off your spectacles

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

retrofuturist wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:41 pm Greetings SDA,
retrofuturist wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:07 am Please point to the Sutta that substantiates this position.
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:19 pm Please kindly refresh memory on the Code of Displine of Goenkaji's retreats
That's a bit of a non-answer since Goenka doesn't define anything in the Dhamma. That would be like saying that Dhamma Wheel's Terms Of Service defines Sila. :roll:
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:19 pm , and search various non-transgressions in Patisambhidamagga.
Another non answer.

It sounds like your earlier comment that "Sila-fulfillment cannot be achieved by meditators breaching rational guidelines set by the centres which are meant to be complied with rational guidelines demanded by the local health authorities" is unsubstantiated nonsense and that you're trying to shoehorn your own personal views and values into the Dhamma.

Metta,
Paul. :)




Thanks.

I'm glad it seems the issue with realization may well have been solved.
  • retrofuturist wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:07 am ...
    I didn't realise that sila means compliance.
    ...
  • Anyway, here are some handy reference from Goenkaji's website
    • The Code of Discipline

      The foundation of the practice is sila - moral conduct. ...
      • The Precepts ...
      • Acceptance of the Teacher and the Technique

        Students must declare themselves willing to comply fully ...
      Meditation and Self-discipline
      ... the meditation will suit only those willing to work seriously and observe the discipline,
      ...Rules and regulations have been developed keeping this practical aspect in mind.
      ... they are based on the practical experience of thousands of meditators over the years and are both scientific and rational.
And, why resorted hastily to conclusions of "unsubstantiated nonsense" and "shoehorning personal views and values"? Rather, it is quite obvious that even a few sprinkles of common sense and willingness would help a lot in realization about sila and compliance in this scenario; and even more clear when considering various 'non-transgressions related to virtue' mentioned in Patisambhidamagga of the Pali Canon.

:anjali:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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retrofuturist
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Re: Take off your spectacles

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Wait, so you're saying that Goenka redefines Sila as being acceptance of him, his teachings and a willingness to comply with them?

Really?

:rofl:

How convenient (and not in the Suttas).

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
BrokenBones
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Re: Take off your spectacles

Post by BrokenBones »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:06 am Greetings,

Wait, so you're saying that Goenka redefines Sila as being acceptance of him, his teachings and a willingness to comply with them?

Really?

:rofl:

How convenient (and not in the Suttas).

Metta,
Paul. :)
There is also a demand to forsake all other practices if one wants to progress in the organisation. If you so much as practice a different form of anapana... you have broken the 'purity' of the teachings and can't do the longer retreats, but have to start from scratch... the whole thing is beyond ridiculous and verging on the dangerous.
sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

The teacher is Buddha, the teaching the Dhamma, and mixing up techniques may not be wise, and can be dangerous. Btw, no one is forced to go to a retreat run by Vipassana.org. It is a choice based on conditions. Please pause before ignorantly acting to divide the community of truth seekers.
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