Take off your spectacles

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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retrofuturist
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Re:

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
sunnat wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:25 am Btw, no one is forced to go to a retreat run by Vipassana.org. It is a choice based on conditions. Please pause before ignorantly acting to divide the community of truth seekers.
Maybe that organisation is acting "ignorantly" by trying to claim some direct, pristine connection to the Buddha and his "technique", and then spinning around and doing a 180 degree turn by forcing people to abandon the Buddha's actual teachings in favour of their own impoverished misrepresentations of the Dhamma?

:shrug:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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DNS
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Post by DNS »

sunnat wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:25 am The teacher is Buddha, the teaching the Dhamma, and mixing up techniques may not be wise, and can be dangerous. Btw, no one is forced to go to a retreat run by Vipassana.org. It is a choice based on conditions. Please pause before ignorantly acting to divide the community of truth seekers.
If you're referring to the retreats in the Goenka tradition, the correct website address is:
https://www.dhamma.org/
sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

Correct, thank you
BrokenBones
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Re:

Post by BrokenBones »

sunnat wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:25 am The teacher is Buddha, the teaching the Dhamma, and mixing up techniques may not be wise, and can be dangerous. Btw, no one is forced to go to a retreat run by Vipassana.org. It is a choice based on conditions. Please pause before ignorantly acting to divide the community of truth seekers.
This 'mixing' up of techniques rubbish is a Goenka idea. The Buddha urged people to do whatever meditation he had taught... at the appropriate time. So cemeteries contemplation at one time, Metta at another, body parts etc. etc.
You are quite correct... no one is forced to go on these retreats but by fair means or foul a lot of people have developed a dependency on the 'technique' and the organisation which is not a good thing.
And I don't mind being called ignorant in calling out a 'well respected organisation' that has systematically tried to devalue and transform the Dhamma. The 'technique' was not passed down in an unbroken lineage from the Buddha to Goenka... its utter nonsense. The suttas have been passed down to us... any idiosyncratic methods that have arisen along the way are purely down to their respective founders... I doubt that Ven Thanissaro would claim his unique anapana instructions are pristine from the Buddha himself, to do so would hold himself up to ridicule.

I know of no sangha that teaches the 'full' eightfold path that restricts laypeople from exploring other sanghas.
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Dan74
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Re: Take off your spectacles

Post by Dan74 »

thepea wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:33 pm
Dan74 wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:40 am You mean to say that there is no one there who see it the way you do. This isn't necessarily the same as "having the wisdom".
This is precisely the questions I have asked the acharias about my practice.
We have all done the same practice of seeing things clearly.
Now why am I able to see that this is a hostile corporate takeover so clearly and everyone in the centre refuses to dialog with me and they just quote the local covid-19 rhetoric and if I press for discussion they simply hang up?
No discussion is allowed, no rational dialog is allowed to take place. I went there hands clasped begging for an answer that explains why I. M so different in opinion to the centre narrative and could anyone e plain to me why this is so?
Nothing.....they refuse to talk.
This alone is evidence of a deep deception taking place, but I also have 12 months of evidence from directly challenging these Covid health restrictions and the politicians and corporations and police inability to logically follow written law or explain the reasoning.
I must conclude that Mara has breached this organization and is operating from within at a deep level.
Akin to most Buddhist and other religious institutions.
The course as left by goenka is pure, but the staff in charge through medical tyranny have found a way to breach the sanctity and purity of this tradition.
I simply must as my duty speak out against this as I see it.
My hope is. O done will be able to explain rationally to me why those practicing in this tradition for so many years how they could stoop to this level of deceipt and stab goenka in the back.
I simply cannot speak of this tradition with one ounce of respect at current.
I have however met one minister in the Christian church who has remained in purity and refuses to bow to greed or fear. This is a man, he defies the lockdown measures and stands open to his flock and preaches the word of god(dhamma).
Maybe the refuse to dialogue with you because you only hear what agrees with your views. They wisely refuse to feed your madness. It's what we here should do as well.
_/|\_
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Re: Re:

Post by thepea »

retrofuturist wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:36 am Greetings,
sunnat wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:25 am Btw, no one is forced to go to a retreat run by Vipassana.org. It is a choice based on conditions. Please pause before ignorantly acting to divide the community of truth seekers.
Maybe that organisation is acting "ignorantly" by trying to claim some direct, pristine connection to the Buddha and his "technique", and then spinning around and doing a 180 degree turn by forcing people to abandon the Buddha's actual teachings in favour of their own impoverished misrepresentations of the Dhamma?

:shrug:

Metta,
Paul. :)
Maybe this organization is doing this now, I cannot confirm or deny as they flat out refuse to speak about anything going on. At least at my local centre, but I have placed calls to 7 other centres and left messages at those that had voicemail. It is notoriously difficult to reach a living being at majority of these centres due to volunteer aspect.

Goenka, I am certain as ubakhin were highly realized individuals as are many within other religions.

I often make the statement here that regardless of religious affiliation those who see clearly, simply see clearly and when the gift of a moment of absolute clarity occurs this is unshakeable and permanent change upon this individual.

As someone who has sat many courses, including the old student courses and a few long courses I can with safety say that I fully support the instructions and layout of the course as set up by goenka himself.
This may not be digestible to all but this course worked me and still does and always will. But as I’ve also said before I’ve activated annicca. I can use the breath the way another may use walking meditation or noting or rise and fall of belly to harness concentration.
Then naturally the entirety of body comes into view at deeper and deeper levels. It all becomes the beautiful breath.
The beautiful breath is the gateway to nibanna(god, alla, or whatever you prefer to label).

Now my issue is with the obedience rag, and it’s forced use. This covers the beautiful breath and for those in the know it is a form of submission. Now for someone like myself an old student I could of force muzzled could enter a concentrated state and practice as buddha requires. My concern is when I think back to my first course and the struggles I had over the first six days, I honestly cannot see myself struggling and surviving the course muzzled. The subtle aspect of breath becomes a moist mass of confusion under the muzzle and this is merely the physical aspect of this not the mental aspect of forcibly being gagged. For any individual who has endured a forced sexual assault this is simply torture.
So currently this tradition is holding the dhamma hostage or forcing those with mental trauma into a situation of forced obedience. This is sick and I cannot fathom being in this situation or putting another in this situation. The dhamma must be available to all.
So how can they operate and believe me the second the Heath nazis say they can open they do with forced masking and distancing obedience.
I just cannot find any teachings that describe forced obedience as a sila teaching. Buddha always says avoid killing or lying or stealing he did not say “obey my word”.

Goenka was wise to order that his tradition be kept in purity by only allowing the weaker minded to push buttons, just look at how they have allowed Mara to penetrate and shut down their tradition overnight with a lie.

And the saintly ones the realized ariya, they slam the door and hang up the phone. I try and will continue to shine light upon this evil that has overtaken society but it is difficult.
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Re: Take off your spectacles

Post by thepea »

Dan74 wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:19 am
Maybe the refuse to dialogue with you because you only hear what agrees with your views. They wisely refuse to feed your madness. It's what we here should do as well.
If you were forcibly raped and now being forced to wear an obedience rag over your mouth and nose, just as your rapist applied to you so you could not scream for help, and your centre is now forcing you to wear an obedience rag and calling this a “retreat” then something is seriously fcuked up with these people if they fail to see the difficulty this causes. And then they want to call this “for safety”.

Answer that Dan, defend that.
Find a sutta that incorporates torture and discrimination and let’s dialogue.
But I assume you will choose to ignore me or hang up on me, just like the Vipassana centres.
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Re: Re:

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
thepea wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:55 am But as I’ve also said before I’ve activated annicca.
This is an example of the "impoverished misrepresentations of the Dhamma" I was referring to above. What on earth does this even mean? There's nothing in the suttas that correlates to this gibberish.

When the Dhamma and discipline have been so grossly distorted, is it any wonder you find dissatisfaction?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
thepea
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Re: Re:

Post by thepea »

retrofuturist wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:25 am Greetings,
thepea wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:55 am But as I’ve also said before I’ve activated annicca.
This is an example of the "impoverished misrepresentations of the Dhamma" I was referring to above. What on earth does this even mean? There's nothing in the suttas that correlates to this gibberish.

When the Dhamma and discipline have been so grossly distorted, is it any wonder you find dissatisfaction?

Metta,
Paul. :)
This is a phrase that ubhakhin used. I read it in one of his transcripts it is not taught by goenka as far as I know.
I like it, and use it to describe what “I” would interpret as entering the first jhana, or single pointed concentration.
If this is how ubhakhin meant the use of this word I cannot confirm or deny.
I mean really it is all gibberish, any words used to describe the subtle aspects of mind and body.
I really don’t mean any offence to anyone with the use of this word.
Prior to my first course I had never experienced the dissolution of the body or the breaking apart of “pain” as I did then, and as I’m able to now.
I use this word to describe the point of concentration where there is such arising and passing that nothing solid can be experienced. Since “activating” this or seeing this it has remained accessible to me whenever I look.
Like once the light has been turned on in the room you know the contents of the room and always know.
BrokenBones
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Re: Take off your spectacles

Post by BrokenBones »

thepea... let it go friend... find a good monk that teaches the basics... sila, generosity, right view etc. and take pleasure and joy in that... then think about doing a bit of meditation... the sort that brings happiness and helps banish the blues. The Dhamma is much too important to take it seriously (grimly)... smile 😃
Leave the 'activation of annicca' to people who don't read, listen or understand the suttas. We are human beings with a myriad of emotions, feelings, thoughts etc... not sankhara atoms to be eradicated.
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Re: Take off your spectacles

Post by thepea »

BrokenBones wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:42 pm thepea... let it go friend... find a good monk that teaches the basics... sila, generosity, right view etc. and take pleasure and joy in that... then think about doing a bit of meditation... the sort that brings happiness and helps banish the blues. The Dhamma is much too important to take it seriously (grimly)... smile 😃
Leave the 'activation of annicca' to people who don't read, listen or understand the suttas. We are human beings with a myriad of emotions, feelings, thoughts etc... not sankhara atoms to be eradicated.
Don’t tell me what to do. :sage:
I am anything but obedient.
Communicate with me politely, and I will respond accordingly.
“Let it go”
So... if you are wronged or being wronged and you register or file a lawsuit to change the way you were treated for future, should according to you that individual just “let it go” and allow abusers to carry on with no retribution?
Or.... is it our duty when we see wrong to stand on guard and challenge this with every ounce and effort?
Why do you assume I am not present and not suffering while challenging these issues?
I am a saintly person, it is my duty to rise up and stand against such foolishness. If I don’t, who will?
Consider yourself lucky that there are individuals on this planet who can and do stand on guard.
You’re welcome.
Jason
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Dan74
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Re: Take off your spectacles

Post by Dan74 »

thepea wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:14 am
Dan74 wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:19 am
Maybe the refuse to dialogue with you because you only hear what agrees with your views. They wisely refuse to feed your madness. It's what we here should do as well.
If you were forcibly raped and now being forced to wear an obedience rag over your mouth and nose, just as your rapist applied to you so you could not scream for help, and your centre is now forcing you to wear an obedience rag and calling this a “retreat” then something is seriously fcuked up with these people if they fail to see the difficulty this causes. And then they want to call this “for safety”.

Answer that Dan, defend that.
Find a sutta that incorporates torture and discrimination and let’s dialogue.
But I assume you will choose to ignore me or hang up on me, just like the Vipassana centres.
No, mate. I don't choose to ignore you or hang up on you, although maybe that would indeed be the wiser option. But to compare wearing a mask to rape and reliving rape is completely f$#%ed up. I've been teaching in a mask since August, as have all my students. It's far from ideal but here we are. And we do our best.

It is no rape. To compare it must either come from some very deep trauma that you've lived through but haven't work through. Or you are just being an absolute dick. In either case, I wish you all the best. Metta all the way.
_/|\_
thepea
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Re: Take off your spectacles

Post by thepea »

Dan74 wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:35 pm
thepea wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:14 am
Dan74 wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:19 am
Maybe the refuse to dialogue with you because you only hear what agrees with your views. They wisely refuse to feed your madness. It's what we here should do as well.
If you were forcibly raped and now being forced to wear an obedience rag over your mouth and nose, just as your rapist applied to you so you could not scream for help, and your centre is now forcing you to wear an obedience rag and calling this a “retreat” then something is seriously fcuked up with these people if they fail to see the difficulty this causes. And then they want to call this “for safety”.

Answer that Dan, defend that.
Find a sutta that incorporates torture and discrimination and let’s dialogue.
But I assume you will choose to ignore me or hang up on me, just like the Vipassana centres.
No, mate. I don't choose to ignore you or hang up on you, although maybe that would indeed be the wiser option. But to compare wearing a mask to rape and reliving rape is completely f$#%ed up. I've been teaching in a mask since August, as have all my students. It's far from ideal but here we are. And we do our best.

It is no rape. To compare it must either come from some very deep trauma that you've lived through but haven't work through. Or you are just being an absolute dick. In either case, I wish you all the best. Metta all the way.
My wife was gagged and forcibly raped, for her to be muzzled against he free will brings back the same trauma from the rape. I also was sexually assaulted against my will as a young child. Because of this I have trust issues with authority and am skepticle of foolish behaviour and authoritarian control.
I cannot wear the obedience rag, it’s medical it falls under the psychological area of a mental disability. Even though I view this as a strength it is considered a disability.
Good for you, that you can muzzle yourself and your students. I cannot and neither can my wife, and I refuse to muzzle my offspring.
So why do you feel it even remotely agreeable to hang up on me or ignore me.
Why???? Where is the compassion for survivors of abuse.
Understand that if anyone is to be intolerant of anyone it is my wife and myself.
There is a reckoning coming, get on the right side of this sir.
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Dan74
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Re: Take off your spectacles

Post by Dan74 »

thepea wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:54 pm
Dan74 wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:35 pm
thepea wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:14 am

If you were forcibly raped and now being forced to wear an obedience rag over your mouth and nose, just as your rapist applied to you so you could not scream for help, and your centre is now forcing you to wear an obedience rag and calling this a “retreat” then something is seriously fcuked up with these people if they fail to see the difficulty this causes. And then they want to call this “for safety”.

Answer that Dan, defend that.
Find a sutta that incorporates torture and discrimination and let’s dialogue.
But I assume you will choose to ignore me or hang up on me, just like the Vipassana centres.
No, mate. I don't choose to ignore you or hang up on you, although maybe that would indeed be the wiser option. But to compare wearing a mask to rape and reliving rape is completely f$#%ed up. I've been teaching in a mask since August, as have all my students. It's far from ideal but here we are. And we do our best.

It is no rape. To compare it must either come from some very deep trauma that you've lived through but haven't work through. Or you are just being an absolute dick. In either case, I wish you all the best. Metta all the way.
My wife was gagged and forcibly raped, for her to be muzzled against he free will brings back the same trauma from the rape. I also was sexually assaulted against my will as a young child. Because of this I have trust issues with authority and am skepticle of foolish behaviour and authoritarian control.
I cannot wear the obedience rag, it’s medical it falls under the psychological area of a mental disability. Even though I view this as a strength it is considered a disability.
Good for you, that you can muzzle yourself and your students. I cannot and neither can my wife, and I refuse to muzzle my offspring.
So why do you feel it even remotely agreeable to hang up on me or ignore me.
Why???? Where is the compassion for survivors of abuse.
Understand that if anyone is to be intolerant of anyone it is my wife and myself.
There is a reckoning coming, get on the right side of this sir.
Good questions.

Simply because up until now, it was not quite clear where you were coming from with this.

Now that it is, I can only tell you this. My heart is with you. And with your wife.

Surviving something like this is not something other people can really understand. Be strong and support each other, the best way you know. Which I am sure you're doing already.

But I would be doing you a disservice, basically lying to you, if I said that what you are seeing is what you and your wife had lived through. This is a different situation and a completely different rationale for doing this. You are still seeing everything through the prism of your trauma. But... it doesn't apply.

And what's more, your kids deserve to see it for themselves and not filtered through their parents' trauma.

I wish you all the best.
_/|\_
BrokenBones
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Re: Take off your spectacles

Post by BrokenBones »

thepea wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:27 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:42 pm thepea... let it go friend... find a good monk that teaches the basics... sila, generosity, right view etc. and take pleasure and joy in that... then think about doing a bit of meditation... the sort that brings happiness and helps banish the blues. The Dhamma is much too important to take it seriously (grimly)... smile 😃
Leave the 'activation of annicca' to people who don't read, listen or understand the suttas. We are human beings with a myriad of emotions, feelings, thoughts etc... not sankhara atoms to be eradicated.
Don’t tell me what to do. :sage:
I am anything but obedient.
Communicate with me politely, and I will respond accordingly.
“Let it go”
So... if you are wronged or being wronged and you register or file a lawsuit to change the way you were treated for future, should according to you that individual just “let it go” and allow abusers to carry on with no retribution?
Or.... is it our duty when we see wrong to stand on guard and challenge this with every ounce and effort?
Why do you assume I am not present and not suffering while challenging these issues?
I am a saintly person, it is my duty to rise up and stand against such foolishness. If I don’t, who will?
Consider yourself lucky that there are individuals on this planet who can and do stand on guard.
You’re welcome.
Jason
If you're talking of being 'saintly' and 'retribution' in the same breath, then I think it's time I disengaged.
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