Thoughts on Anapanasati

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
User avatar
pitithefool
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:39 am

Re: Thoughts on Anapanasati

Post by pitithefool »

SarathW wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:02 am
What I would really expect however, is for there to be older Vedic texts using similar terms with similar meanings revolving around the treatment of prana or breath/lifeforce as it relates to meditation. Are you aware of older texts that treat the topic like that?

The reason I wouldn't be surprised is that the Buddha was taught meditation by Ramaputta and Kalama, and that the techniques in the canon may have been known about before the Buddha's awakening.
The difference could be there is an extension to Anapanasati named Satipathana.
Buddha went beyond Anapanasati and taught Satipathana.
Ramaputta and Kalama were able to get to the realm of neither-perception-nor-non-perception but they were not able to go any farther. Buddha awoke to anatta and broke through to Nirodha Samapatti.

This is one of the many things that are so amazing to me about the Buddha and the Dhamma. That and the vast amount of teaching that the Buddha did. Every day I'm grateful that the Sangha chose to write the teachings down for posterity. :bow:
Please note: This profile picture is not actually a picture of the user.
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Thoughts on Anapanasati

Post by DooDoot »

pitithefool wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:17 pm So that doesn't really make sense to me...
Naturally; similar to the suttas quoted, which were not replied to. As was posted, it was declared the teachings of the Buddha having something "missing". This is obviously contrary to what the Buddha taught. The Buddha said he taught everything necessary & the Buddha did not teach to masturbate with the breathing.
pitithefool wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:17 pm I've been practicing it for a few years and it works wonderfully for me.
:thinking: It works so well for you that you ask for others thoughts and then when they reply to your request you attack & slander them. Sure. It works really well. :smile:
pitithefool wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:17 pmI'm also not quite convinced you "mastered" Ajahn Lee's meditation technique after a month and a half of practicing it, after which you gave up.
It is best for Buddhists to not engage in false speech. I posted the method does not work. It cannot work. This is from 30 years ago. It is contrary to the Noble Path. That it was posted something was "missing" from the Noble Path shows the Noble Path is not being practised and shows whatever "wonderful results" are claimed are contrary to the results of the Noble Path. The fact it was claimed 100% Theravada yet most that is posted is Hinduism shows it stinks.
pitithefool wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:17 pm The main problem you seem to have is that the volitional fabrications espoused in this technique are too "grabby" or "course" for them to work, but it seems like you simply have a poor grasp of the technique.
No. Based on the above, the fact appears to be an OVERESTIMATION of what is occurring. In summary, jhana has never been entered. The MN 119 descriptions have zero relevance to the poster. The poster publicly claimed to have entered jhana by the practice of breath masturbation.
pitithefool wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:17 pmI haven't misinterpreted MN119; letting go and relaxing are integral to the technique, but they are still very much volitional actions.
The above merely appears to be an attempt to defend oneself. Also, i don't ever recall i said there was no volition involved in letting go. I said no volition is required for consciousness to experience the breathing. Since you appear to believe the self is watching the breathing, it appears the results are not Buddhist at all but instead Hindu; similar to Thanissaro's embarrassing book called Not Self Strategy where he did not even understand SN 44.10 and was as confused as the befuddled Vacchagotta. :smile:

The bottom line is either I am wrong or the other poster is wrong and its not me because what i posted was supported by unambiguous suttas. ;)
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
pitithefool
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:39 am

Re: Thoughts on Anapanasati

Post by pitithefool »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:00 am
I'm not even going to bother addressing this lol.

Let's get to the point, good sir. If using the breath energy is not a valid form of meditation, then what is? What are your experiences with your preferred technique and what makes it superior?
Please note: This profile picture is not actually a picture of the user.
User avatar
pitithefool
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:39 am

Re: Thoughts on Anapanasati

Post by pitithefool »

pitithefool wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:24 am
DooDoot wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:00 am
I'm not even going to bother addressing this lol. :stirthepot:

Let's get to the point, good sir. If using the breath energy is not a valid form of meditation, then what is? What are your experiences with your preferred technique and what makes it superior?
Please note: This profile picture is not actually a picture of the user.
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Thoughts on Anapanasati

Post by DooDoot »

pitithefool wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:24 am Let's get to the point, good sir. If using the breath energy is not a valid form of meditation, then what is?
Its unrelated to what the Buddha taught. MN 119 is referring to the whole kaya (both mental & physical) saturated with rapture. It is not referring to the breath & the Hindu methods Thanissaro teaches on U-Tube.
pitithefool wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:24 amWhat are your experiences with your preferred technique and what makes it superior?
I already posted quotes from SN 48.10 and MN 118, where the Buddha taught "vossagga" is the method. Watching breathing is not a method. Experiencing breathing is a result of "vossagga". Mindfulness means remembering rather than watching. The mind remembers to let go and the result is the experiencing of the breathing. No volition is required to watch the breathing. Anapanasati means mindfulness with breathing rather than mindfulness of breathing.
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
pitithefool
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:39 am

Re: Thoughts on Anapanasati

Post by pitithefool »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:28 am
I already posted quotes from SN 48.10 and MN 118, where the Buddha taught "vossagga" is the method. Watching breathing is not a method. It is a result of "vossagga". Mindfulness means remembering rather than watching. The mind remembers to let go and the result is the experiencing of the breathing. No volition is required to watch the breathing.
Ok explain it to me like I'm five. What does this process look like?
Please note: This profile picture is not actually a picture of the user.
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Thoughts on Anapanasati

Post by DooDoot »

pitithefool wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:31 am Ok explain it to me like I'm five. What does this process look like?
What process? :roll:

Let go > maintain mind without craving > mind automatically merges with & experiences breathing > continue letting go & maintaining a mind without craving

Once the mind is skilled in lettin go, this is the metaphor in MN 119, as Ajahn Brahm properly described in his book about how letting go fuels the bliss
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
pitithefool
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:39 am

Re: Thoughts on Anapanasati

Post by pitithefool »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:33 am
Let go > maintain mind without craving > mind automatically merges with & experiences breathing > continue letting go & maintaining a mind without craving
OK, this makes sense. I don't have any problem with this at all, it seems rather neat and simple.

What's make's Thanissaro's specifically incorrect though?
Please note: This profile picture is not actually a picture of the user.
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Thoughts on Anapanasati

Post by DooDoot »

pitithefool wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:42 am What's make's Thanissaro's specifically incorrect though?
The Buddha taught to abandon craving. Thanissaro's surely cannot lead to optimal results because, just as the 2nd jhana differs from the 1st jhana due to a reduction of mental (sankhara aggregate) activity, all Noble Path progress is dependent upon a reduction in mental (volitional; sankhara aggregate) activity.

Sure, various "techniques" can result in the experience of calm. In my 1st six weeks of meditation, I had experiences of life-changing calm. For the 1st time in my life, i experienced peace. I cried about it. But i was reading Ajahn Buddhadasa's book on the 16 steps and I was not progressing clearly thru those 16 steps as he described even though my mind was calm and free from hindrances. Generally, after 60 minutes of meditation, i could not feel the breath anymore. The consciousness & objects became unclear. Therefore, as i learned about Buddhism more, i learned the goal is to be free from craving so i tried my best to drop all craving, wanting, ambition, etc. After that, I was happy with the results. The consciousness & objects became so much more clearer. The breath always remained clear, regardless of how subtle it became. Therefore, at least for me, i regard my views as consistent with what the Buddha emphasized; which is the letting go of craving & attachment.

Anyway, i saw this topic and a reference to Hinduism so i expressed my view "techniques" are Hinduism. There are renowned scholars who have accused modern Buddhist meditation as being "yogic" or "Hindu". I cannot help to agree with them.
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
pitithefool
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:39 am

Re: Thoughts on Anapanasati

Post by pitithefool »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:59 am

Therefore, as i learned about Buddhism more, i learned the goal is to be free from craving so i tried my best to drop all craving, wanting, ambition, etc. After that, I was happy with the results. The consciousness & objects became so much more clearer. The breath always remained clear, regardless of how subtle it became. Therefore, at least for me, I regard my views as consistent with what the Buddha emphasized; which is the letting go of craving & attachment.
That's beautiful :clap:

I completely agree with you about emphasizing letting go of craving and attachment and I'm really happy to hear you found a way on your own to do that.

For me, when I do breath meditation, it's a matter of relaxing. If I do it like that, I can stay sitting for hours and it's not with any sort of force. I know at first glance it can seem like I'm squeezing pleasure out of the breath, but in my experience, it's much more the act of relaxing and letting go that allows those energies to come loose and permeate the body. I tried squeezing and gripping the breath when I first started learning meditation and I failed miserably. It was only when I had the goal to let go and stop trying to grab at pleasure that it came on and my mind would settle.

When I start relaxing and letting go, the piti-sukha comes up on its own and permeates. From there, it serves to make the concentration stronger and the mind more firmly fixed to its object. In your description, once the preccupations fall away, the mind will settle of it's own accord on the breath as it's pleasant. The mind then becomes less interested in the piti-sukha and more interested in calm and equanimity, dropping away desire for pleasure and replacing it with stillness. Once it's rock steady, and can't be distracted, the perception of the body can even be let go of and we're in formless land.

I know I think it sounds like the methods might be quite different, but when you quoted the sutta about uncovering the soil, that's what it's like. It's willed, sure and that was sortof the point I was trying to make, that the volitional act of letting go and trying to be free of craving is precisely what allows us to start sensing the breath energy and what allows us to also let it go as well as the rest of the world. Sometimes, I have to work a little bit at first to get the mind to pay attention to the breath and that's where I noticed our methods differ slightly. I do find however that if I practice asubhasanna or perception of unsatisfactoriness of all phenomena that my mind will settle on the breath much more automatically.

Let me know what you think!
And come here! :hug:
Please note: This profile picture is not actually a picture of the user.
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Thoughts on Anapanasati

Post by DooDoot »

pitithefool wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:48 am When I start relaxing and letting go, the piti-sukha comes up on its own and permeates. From there, it serves to make the concentration stronger and the mind more firmly fixed to its object.
Again, my impression is the above is another overestimation. When there is samadhi with the breath, sure, it feels good. There are pleasant feelings. But such relatively low level pleasant feelings are not steps 5 & 6 of Anapanasati, let alone jhana. In steps 5 & 6 of Anapanasati, the feelings are so salient that the breathing is barely but clearly knowable in the background. The rapture & happiness is known not in the (below neck) body but in the brain/forebrain; after the mind has naturally converged with only knowing the breathing at the nostril. In jhana, there is no experience of the breathing or the physical body (even though the physical & mental bodies are saturated with rapture). An experience of pleasure in meditation is not necessarily jhana.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
pitithefool
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:39 am

Re: Thoughts on Anapanasati

Post by pitithefool »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:07 am
Again, my impression is the above is another overestimation. When there is samadhi with the breath, sure, it feels good. There are pleasant feelings. But such relatively low level pleasant feelings are not steps 5 & 6 of Anapanasati, let alone jhana. In steps 5 & 6 of Anapanasati, the feelings are so salient that the breathing is barely but clearly knowable in the background. The rapture & happiness is known not in the (below neck) body but in the brain/forebrain; after the mind has naturally converged with only knowing the breathing at the nostril. In jhana, there is no experience of the breathing or the physical body (even though the physical & mental bodies are saturated with rapture). The experience of pleasure in meditation is not necessarily jhana.
Eh maybe it is an overestimation. I'll tell you a typical experience and you tell me what you think.
When starting I'll take the breath as an object, usually around the navel or in front of the chest. Depending on my practice habits, usually some sense of lightness, airiness or coolness is present where the attention is placed. Often times all it takes is to stay with the initial sensations of airiness, but sometimes some work needs to be done to "unblock" (relaxing and letting go) the energies so that they can flow freely and fill the body. In the end though the perception of piti-sukha and the breath merges together and fills the entire awareness as a single, stable perception.

Then, once it's completely saturated, and the perception fills the awareness entirely, the main sense of well-being will come from the unification of the perception and how pervasive and stable it is, rather than from relaxing and letting go.

After that the grosser sensations of piti subside and the mind settles with and inner sense of peace and equanimity.

When even the subtle pleasure of equanimity subsides, all we're left with is a pure, extremely stable awareness that fills the body.

From there, the perception of the body will sort-of dematerialize and the sense of awareness is of infinite space.
Please note: This profile picture is not actually a picture of the user.
ToVincent
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: Thoughts on Anapanasati

Post by ToVincent »

pitithefool wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:30 pm...
?!?!?!?!
.
.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
Pulsar
Posts: 2641
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Thoughts on Anapanasati

Post by Pulsar »

OP wrote
Anapanasati is similar in practice to pranayama as I understand it, I.e. working with breath energies to reach a state of calm
there is a world of difference between the two. Correct Anapanasati has Buddha written all over the breath (I mean freedom from suffering), and Pranayama is a 5000 yr old? breath manipulation practice. I doubt whether it leads to end of suffering. You wrote
Now the context may not be quite the same I realize, but It seems likely given the stock description of jhana found in MN119 and elsewhere that breath meditation is more working with the breath energy than anything.
As you speculated correctly, the context is quite different. You continued
To quote MN119:

"Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again & again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within & without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal."
The bath simile is used for the first Buddhist Jhana in the canon. It is a metaphor used to help with overriding thinking and exploration or investigation of that thought that impinged. It has its purpose.
But if you want to approach the meditation via breath, you can skip first jhana, or the bath simile, which works very well some times for many people.
There is another another simile in the canon called
Turner Simile.
When you understand that, you will see that breath can be used very subtly
  • to rip apart underlying tendency.
The goal of buddhist meditation is just this, not the hinduistic mechanisms of achieving, boundless space, infinite whatever, or things labelled as neither perception nor non-perception leading to nevasannavedaitanirodha (sp?), but many buddhists still chat about these a lot (since these have been leaked into the canon) i.e. influence of Vedic stuff on Buddhism.
In fact Ajhan Sona has an amazing video illustrating how breath works. And I have written about this on my jhana thread (I think). At least I've spent an entire comment on Sona's series on Jhana. It is too tiring for me to revisit it on this thread.
I know you asked me a question on my jhana thread. The right answer would have been v. lengthy and without knowing your background, I would have failed.
You wrote
I know Bhikkhu Thanissaro holds this view, and this paradigm also seems to work well with more abstract objects like the brahmaviharas.
I agree with this. Thanissaro is a wise monk.
Keep on exploring... these things take time. esp since hinduism has borrowed heavily from Buddha, and later writings of the canon have been influenced by Hinduism.
With love
PS This comment is addressed to the pitithefool only. I have no time to engage in heavy disputes such as Thanissaro is wrong, that Ajahn Lee borrowed from Hinduism. This kind of dispute eats up time, and leads to dead ends. We have to be forever grateful to these giants of Dhamma. Is there anyone who does not make a mistake other than the almighty? :)
Pity this fool too. I like that name, the humility expressed therein.
User avatar
mjaviem
Posts: 2302
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:06 pm

Re: Thoughts on Anapanasati

Post by mjaviem »

pitithefool wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:32 am ... "unblock" (relaxing and letting go) the energies so that they can flow freely and fill the body....
If I'm not derailing the thread and you'd like to reply, could you explain what these breath energies are about? Are they a visualization of imaginary air or something like that? Are they a kind of tool to get better concentration? I don't understand why Tanissaro bhikkhu teaches that when in the suttas breath energies are not mentioned as far as I know. I find this breath energies something mystical, hard to believe in.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Post Reply