Jhāna and the Formless

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Ceisiwr
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Jhāna and the Formless

Post by Ceisiwr »

Is there a sutta which explicitly states that Jhāna is a necessary condition for developing the formless attainments?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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confusedlayman
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Re: Jhāna and the Formless

Post by confusedlayman »

I think yes because u should not feel body

But i think u can so formless from directly equnimity of space
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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DooDoot
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Re: Jhāna and the Formless

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:38 pm Is there a sutta which explicitly states that Jhāna is a necessary condition for developing the formless attainments?
I recall there are suttas that refer to various non-Buddhist reflections/doctrines that lead to the sphere of nothingness (however, i can't find them; but i recall they include the doctrine of: "‘I might not be and it might not be mine; I shall not be, and it will not be mine"). Such spheres of nothingness may not be as refined as those reached via jhana.
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Ratnakar
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Re: Jhāna and the Formless

Post by Ratnakar »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:38 pm Is there a sutta which explicitly states that Jhāna is a necessary condition for developing the formless attainments?
An 9.36 jhana sutta
The first absorption is a basis for ending the defilements.’ That’s what I said, but why did I say it? Take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption. They contemplate the phenomena there—included in form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness—as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self. They turn their mind away from those things, and apply it to the deathless: ‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment.’ Abiding in that they attain the ending of defilements. If they don’t attain the ending of defilements, with the ending of the five lower fetters they’re reborn spontaneously, because of their passion and love for that meditation. They are extinguished there, and are not liable to return from that world.
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Re: Jhāna and the Formless

Post by DooDoot »

Ratnakar wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:22 am An 9.36 jhana sutta
Appears irrelevent, ftw.
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Ratnakar
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Re: Jhāna and the Formless

Post by Ratnakar »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:02 pm I think yes because u should not feel body

But i think u can so formless from directly equnimity of space
People can still feel their body during jhana remember there is still thoughts and there are 6 thoughts thought about touch ,sight,sound,smell,taste And thought about thought

That's why bahiya becomes arahat just by hearing 5 sentences of the buddha he is in right jhana while hearing it and even if you argue that he is not in right jhana that would be even more strange for how can people with wrong jhana attain the supreme sanctuary as we all know there is still hindrances in wrong jhana state in fact buddha said if you are in jhana that would be only 2 probability it's whether you are in wrong jhana or right jhana there is no 3rd jhana state called neither wrong jhana nor right jhana

In order to hear sound or word from buddha bahiya needs to have awareness not only of his body but of his surroundings too that happens in both right jhanas and wrong jhana

Buddha also said that even though he attain first jhana the perception and attention of sensuality still disturb him which means you can actually to not put your attention on sound ,touch etc and focus instead on the piti and sukha you can still perceive them but you can ignore them in this case the buddha choose to ignore them all and this acts of ignoring them each time they appear is what continually disturb the buddha

And this is why buddha said that sound is a thorn to first jhana if really in first jhana there is no sound buddha should not say that sound is thorn because there is no possibility that sound will even appear in first jhana instead buddha would say monks you all should not worry about sound at all but here buddha not only warn monks of sounds but he goes one step further by dismissing 500 monks just because they create too much sounds

Obviously not all sounds are thorns for example the sound that bahiya hears the dhamma sound is not a thorn while non dhamma sounds like your heartbeat sounds are thorns
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Re: Jhāna and the Formless

Post by DooDoot »

Ratnakar wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:09 am People can still feel their body during jhana...
Not according to the meditation heavy weights. Only according to the internet light jhana mob of ego-builders.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Jhāna and the Formless

Post by Ratnakar »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:13 am
Ratnakar wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:09 am People can still feel their body during jhana...
Not according to the meditation heavy weights. Only according to the internet light jhana mob of ego-builders.
Both ajahn brahm and ajahn sujato are wrong they choose the wrong path they disagree with their own teacher ajahn chah they are not that knowledgeable as ajahn chah I say they even bring bad reputation to ajahn chah that is how far they stray they don't follow hard jhana they follow visuddhimagga jhana while ajahn chah follows patisambhidamagga and sutta jhana

The word light and hard jhana is never mentioned by buddha not even ajahn chah mentioned that words that words is just ajahn brahm and his disciples creation

ajahn brahm and his disciples has no right
To claim they are ajahn chah lineage if he wants to create his own lineage that's still ok of course people have a right to believe anything they want
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Re: Jhāna and the Formless

Post by DooDoot »

Ratnakar wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:33 am Both ajahn brahm and ajahn sujato are wrong they choose the wrong path they disagree with their own teacher ajahn chah... they even bring bad reputation to ajahn chah
big claim. any evidence to support the above? thanks :smile:
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SarathW
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Re: Jhāna and the Formless

Post by SarathW »

Ratnakar wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:33 am
DooDoot wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:13 am
Ratnakar wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:09 am People can still feel their body during jhana...
Not according to the meditation heavy weights. Only according to the internet light jhana mob of ego-builders.
Both ajahn brahm and ajahn sujato are wrong they choose the wrong path they disagree with their own teacher ajahn chah they are not that knowledgeable as ajahn chah I say they even bring bad reputation to ajahn chah that is how far they stray they don't follow hard jhana they follow visuddhimagga jhana while ajahn chah follows patisambhidamagga and sutta jhana

The word light and hard jhana is never mentioned by buddha not even ajahn chah mentioned that words that words is just ajahn brahm and his disciples creation

ajahn brahm and his disciples has no right
To claim they are ajahn chah lineage if he wants to create his own lineage that's still ok of course people have a right to believe anything they want
Hi my friend
Before you criticise those prominent monks, at least you should have some basic Sutta knowledge.
I suggest you start reading some sutta and most importantly practice and know for yourself some basics.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Jhāna and the Formless

Post by SarathW »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:38 pm Is there a sutta which explicitly states that Jhāna is a necessary condition for developing the formless attainments?
Buddha very clearly said that he learned some formless Jhana from his former teachers.
Hence it is very clear that you can attain formless states without first four Jhana as Buddha taught,
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Ratnakar
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Re: Jhāna and the Formless

Post by Ratnakar »

SarathW wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:42 am
Ratnakar wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:33 am
DooDoot wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:13 am
Not according to the meditation heavy weights. Only according to the internet light jhana mob of ego-builders.
Both ajahn brahm and ajahn sujato are wrong they choose the wrong path they disagree with their own teacher ajahn chah they are not that knowledgeable as ajahn chah I say they even bring bad reputation to ajahn chah that is how far they stray they don't follow hard jhana they follow visuddhimagga jhana while ajahn chah follows patisambhidamagga and sutta jhana

The word light and hard jhana is never mentioned by buddha not even ajahn chah mentioned that words that words is just ajahn brahm and his disciples creation

ajahn brahm and his disciples has no right
To claim they are ajahn chah lineage if he wants to create his own lineage that's still ok of course people have a right to believe anything they want
Hi my friend
Before you criticise those prominent monks, at least you should have some basic Sutta knowledge.
I suggest you start reading some sutta and most importantly practice and know for yourself some basics.
Nope ajahn brahm ,ajahn sujato and ajahn analayo they are wrong they are very dangerous because they make people stray from the truth

Here is how dangerous visuddhimagga jhana that ajahn brahm and his disciples teach according to ajahn chah
ON THE DANGERS OF SAMĀDH I
Samādhi is capable of bringing much harm or much benefit to the med-
itator. You can’t say it brings only one or the other. For one who has
no wisdom it is harmful, but for one who has wisdom it can bring real
benefit, it can lead to insight.
That which can possibly be harmful to the meditator is absorption
samādhi (jhāna), the samādhi with deep, sustained calm. This samādhi
brings great peace. Where there is peace, there is happiness. When there is
happiness, attachment and clinging to that happiness arise. The meditator
doesn’t want to contemplate anything else
, he just wants to indulge in that
pleasant feeling. When we have been practising for a long time we may
become adept at entering this samādhi very quickly. As soon as we start
to note our meditation object, the mind enters calm, and we don’t want
to come out to investigate anything
. We just get stuck on that happiness.
This is a danger to one who is practising meditation.
Here ajahn chah said that the state of peacefulness free from sound is not supreme
I’ve often said that there are two kinds of tranquillity. The wise have
divided it into peace through wisdom and peace through samatha. In
peace through samatha, the eye has to be far from sights, the ear far from
sounds, the nose far from smells and so on. Then not hearing, not knowing
and so forth, one can become tranquil. This kind of peacefulness is good
in its way. Is it of value? Yes, it is, but it is not supreme. It is short-lived.
It doesn’t have a reliable foundation. When the senses meet objects that
are displeasing, the mind changes, because it doesn’t want those things
to be present. So the mind always has to struggle with these objects and
no wisdom is born, since the person always feels that he is not at peace
because of those external factors
Ajahn chah said that sound still can enter while in jhana but our mind won't be disturbed
This sort of tranquillity does not get disturbed by experience and sense
contact. But then there is the question, ‘If it is tranquillity, why is there
still something going on?’ There is something happening within tranquil-
lity; it’s not something happening in the ordinary, afflicted way, where
we make more out of it than it really is. When something happens within
tranquillity the mind knows it extremely clearly. Wisdom is born there and
the mind contemplates ever more clearly. We see the way that things actu-
ally happen; when we know the truth of them, then tranquillity becomes
all-inclusive. When the eye sees forms or the ear hears sounds, we recog-
nize them for what they are
. In this latter form of tranquillity, when the
eye sees forms, the mind is peaceful. When the ear hears sounds, the
mind is peaceful. The mind does not waver. Whatever we experience,
the mind is not shaken.
Ajahn chah call tranquillity as jhana
Q: Can this happen with any kind of thinking, or is it only in a state
of tranquillity that it happens?
A: It’s when the mind is tranquil. It’s not ordinary mental proliferation.
You sit with a calm mind and then the initial thought comes. For example,
I think of my brother who just passed away. Or I might think of some
other relatives. This is when the mind is tranquil – the tranquillity isn’t
something certain, but for the moment the mind is tranquil. After this
initial thought comes, I go into discursive thought. If it’s a line of thinking
that’s skilful and wholesome, it leads to ease of mind and happiness, and
there is rapture with its attendant experiences. This rapture came from the initial and discursive thinking that took place in a state of calmness.
We don’t have to give it names such as first jhāna, second jhāna and so
forth. We just call it tranquillity.
Source [html]https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... eXxc3UyDin[/html]
Last edited by Ratnakar on Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:50 am, edited 5 times in total.
SarathW
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Re: Jhāna and the Formless

Post by SarathW »

Please provide the link for your reference.
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Ratnakar
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Re: Jhāna and the Formless

Post by Ratnakar »

I have provide the link and I think these big differences between a student and a teacher happens because the student Don't listen carefully to his teacher

Ajahn brahm is a great monk I admire him but if he atleast try to listen more carefully such big differences won't exists in the first place I feel really sorry for ajahn brahm I hope he can be guided back to ajahn chah path
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Jhāna and the Formless

Post by Ceisiwr »

Ratnakar wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:33 am
DooDoot wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:13 am
Ratnakar wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:09 am People can still feel their body during jhana...
Not according to the meditation heavy weights. Only according to the internet light jhana mob of ego-builders.
Both ajahn brahm and ajahn sujato are wrong they choose the wrong path they disagree with their own teacher ajahn chah they are not that knowledgeable as ajahn chah I say they even bring bad reputation to ajahn chah that is how far they stray they don't follow hard jhana they follow visuddhimagga jhana while ajahn chah follows patisambhidamagga and sutta jhana

The word light and hard jhana is never mentioned by buddha not even ajahn chah mentioned that words that words is just ajahn brahm and his disciples creation

ajahn brahm and his disciples has no right
To claim they are ajahn chah lineage if he wants to create his own lineage that's still ok of course people have a right to believe anything they want
It’s best to go by what the suttas say rather than play “my favourite monk is better than yours”. On a sutta basis it’s clear that the 4 Jhanas are absorbed states where the 5 senses are temporarily shut down (hence why they are close to the end of the world, deva like states etc). Regardless, I’d prefer we stuck to the formless rather than the Jhanas.

:focus:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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