verbal and subverbal vipassana, what kind of vipassana is possible in the 4 jhanas

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verbal and subverbal vipassana, what kind of vipassana is possible in the 4 jhanas

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verbal and subverbal vipassana, what kind of vipassana is possible in the 4 jhanas

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Re: verbal and subverbal vipassana, what kind of vipassana is possible in the 4 jhanas

Post by DooDoot »

vipassana is not "verbal". oh dear

vipassana means "clear seeing" rather than "clear thinking" :roll:
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Re: verbal and subverbal vipassana, what kind of vipassana is possible in the 4 jhanas

Post by Ratnakar »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 8:35 pm vipassana is not "verbal". oh dear

vipassana means "clear seeing" rather than "clear thinking" :roll:
This is verbal thinking(vipassana) while in jhana
Mn111
He discerned,
so evaṃ pajānāti —
‘So this is how these dharma-[phenomena],
‘evaṃ kirame dhammā
not having been, come into play.
ahutvā sambhonti,
Having been, they vanish.’
hutvā paṭiventī’ti’
Sn 56.7
4nt #1) ‘This is pain-&-suffering’
‘Idaṃ dukkhan’ti
(you) should-think (that).
vitakkeyyātha
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DooDoot
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Re: verbal and subverbal vipassana, what kind of vipassana is possible in the 4 jhanas

Post by DooDoot »

Ratnakar wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:19 am This is verbal thinking (vipassana) while in jhana
It is 'thinking' about what is seen. The vipassana is the seeing and not the thinking.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: verbal and subverbal vipassana, what kind of vipassana is possible in the 4 jhanas

Post by Ratnakar »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:31 am
Ratnakar wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:19 am This is verbal thinking (vipassana) while in jhana
It is 'thinking' about what is seen. The vipassana is the seeing and not the thinking.
Vipassana is knowing and seeing, the results of vipassana is knowledge(knowing) and vision(seeing)

Buddha said there are 3 knowledges here
1. Knowledge of one's past rebirth
2. Knowledge of other past rebirth
3. Knowledge of the ending of defilements

That is the vipassana that buddha did in fourth jhana producing what buddha called as right knowledge

Buddha said you need both samatha and vippassana to attain arahantship

The vippassana that we are talking is not the vippassana that buddha did in fourth jhana but what one did in first jhana ,in first jhana there is still sound, thought and evaluation

the evaluation is what bahiya use to achieve arahantship by just hearing 5 sentences from the buddha ,here he too uses both vippassana and samatha to attain arahantship

the vippassana that he uses is thought and evaluation of dhamma, the samatha that he uses is the first jhana
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Re: verbal and subverbal vipassana, what kind of vipassana is possible in the 4 jhanas

Post by confusedlayman »

in fourth jhana nothing can be done other than clear seeing

u need to intent mentally for any thing in access concentration after staying in 4th sometimes, come to 3rd, come to 2nd, come to 1st and then in access ur consciousness moves very fast .. using that if u think stress, origin etc knowledge should come leading to permanent attainment.. this is how I think
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: verbal and subverbal vipassana, what kind of vipassana is possible in the 4 jhanas

Post by Pondera »

Ratnakar wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:39 am
DooDoot wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:31 am
Ratnakar wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:19 am This is verbal thinking (vipassana) while in jhana
It is 'thinking' about what is seen. The vipassana is the seeing and not the thinking.
Vipassana is knowing and seeing, the results of vipassana is knowledge(knowing) and vision(seeing)

Buddha said there are 3 knowledges here
1. Knowledge of one's past rebirth
2. Knowledge of other past rebirth
3. Knowledge of the ending of defilements

That is the vipassana that buddha did in fourth jhana producing what buddha called as right knowledge

Buddha said you need both samatha and vippassana to attain arahantship

The vippassana that we are talking is not the vippassana that buddha did in fourth jhana but what one did in first jhana ,in first jhana there is still sound, thought and evaluation

the evaluation is what bahiya use to achieve arahantship by just hearing 5 sentences from the buddha ,here he too uses both vippassana and samatha to attain arahantship

the vippassana that he uses is thought and evaluation of dhamma, the samatha that he uses is the first jhana
The Buddha did not merely expound three types of knowledges, as you assert.

He expounded the knowledge of the four noble truths and the three marks of existence. Take note. From the “Upanisa Sutta.”
joy has conviction as its prerequisite, rapture has joy as its prerequisite, serenity has rapture as its prerequisite, pleasure has serenity as its prerequisite, concentration has pleasure as its prerequisite, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present has concentration as its prerequisite, disenchantment has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present as its prerequisite, dispassion has disenchantment as its prerequisite, release has dispassion as its prerequisite, knowledge of ending has release as its prerequisite.
Also, From the: Jhana sutta (a very important sutta)
"'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
Notice in both suttas that the actual “vipasanna” going on has nothing to do with past lives, future visions - however, in one respect you are correct. Ie. the knowledge of the ending of the fermentations is a part of this “vipasanna”. But that is incidental. The major thrust of the “insight” revolves around the “three marks” and the various ways that the “skhandas” exhibit the three marks.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: verbal and subverbal vipassana, what kind of vipassana is possible in the 4 jhanas

Post by DooDoot »

Ratnakar wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:39 am
Buddha said there are 3 knowledges here
1. Knowledge of one's past rebirth
Sounds wrong to me. The 1st knowledge does not mention "rebirth". The word "jatiya" does not mean "rebirth". What the 1st knowledge is is described in SN 22.79. Are you able to understand SN 22.79?
Ratnakar wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:39 amThat is the vipassana that buddha did in fourth jhana producing what buddha called as right knowledge

Buddha said you need both samatha and vippassana to attain arahantship
Why are you posting the above to me? I already know these things, which should be obvious to you. You posted the wrong thing, that vipassana is thinking. No amount of posting other things will change your transgression against the Buddha & Dhamma, which you are yet to confess or admit.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: verbal and subverbal vipassana, what kind of vipassana is possible in the 4 jhanas

Post by SteRo »

The differentiation "verbal - subverbal" isn't clear.
Definition of verbal

1a : of, relating to, or consisting of words
b : of, relating to, or involving words rather than meaning or substance
c : consisting of or using words only and not involving action
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/verbal
Based on this it seems there is no verbal vipassana at all. And then, what is "subverbal" other than 'nonverbal'? 'Conceptual' can be both, "verbal" and 'nonverbal'.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
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Re: verbal and subverbal vipassana, what kind of vipassana is possible in the 4 jhanas

Post by Ratnakar »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:41 pm
Ratnakar wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:39 am
Buddha said there are 3 knowledges here
1. Knowledge of one's past rebirth
Sounds wrong to me. The 1st knowledge does not mention "rebirth". The word "jatiya" does not mean "rebirth". What the 1st knowledge is is described in SN 22.79. Are you able to understand SN 22.79?
I mean knowledge of past life I thank you for reminding me here

Ratnakar wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:39 amThat is the vipassana that buddha did in fourth jhana producing what buddha called as right knowledge

Buddha said you need both samatha and vippassana to attain arahantship
Why are you posting the above to me? I already know these things, which should be obvious to you.
Even if you know it the other who doesn't know can know it , even if you know it then how can't you support what the buddha said ? If you don't believe in buddha that's ok I am no one here to force you to believe in him
You posted the wrong thing, that vipassana is thinking. No amount of posting other things will change your transgression against the Buddha & Dhamma, which you are yet to confess or admit.
You are quite incorrect venerable sir ,I never said you need thinking to do vippassana except in first jhana

If your assumption is even in first jhana we can't use thinking to do vippassana then either
1.bahiya shouldn't attain arahantship because buddha said in order to attain arahantship you must do vippassana while bahiya used his thinking and evaluation to understand and evaluate buddha's 5 sentences so you here basically said that bahiya never did vippassana just because he thought and evaluated what the buddha said,
2. Bahiya attained arahantship without vippassana but this contradicts what buddha said that you need vippassana to attain arahantship
3a. Bahiya attained arahantship using vippassana without thinking and evaluation but this contradicts logic for how can one hears sentences without firstly doing vitakka(firstly directing one's attention to the speech) and vicara(holding one's attention to the speech until the speech is finished) if you use bhante sujato's
definition of vitakka you would need vitakka to even move your eyelid let alone knowing the meaning of a complex speech said by the buddha,
3b.even if you sir assume that bahiya don't use vitakka and vicara at all this will create more problem to you because only in second jhana both vitakka and vicara cease this contradicts what the buddha said that noble silence is second jhana if you can't even hear subtle thing like your own thought sir then how can you hear coarser thing like speech made by others while in 2nd jhana ?

Please don't embarrass yourself sir here in this forum I honestly beg you 🙏🙏 if not because of
remembering what the blessed one what the holy one said that "even if they cut your limbs in my name please bear it with equanimity" I wouldn't respond at you sir but because I remember what my guru said that "even if they cut your limbs in my name please bear it with equanimity" I would still respond to you to correct your wrong view I would keep repeating this over and over

Honestly I don't know here whether you are ignorant or pretend to be ignorant

So please know your limit sir I beg you ,you are smart, aren't you ? You must explain to me in what way I transgress the dhamma because you are not making sense here I have provided 3 reasons about why you are incorrect if you want sutta i will give you suttas but you Firstly must ask it because I don't want to give sutta while in the end you just discard what the buddha said in the sutta it's enough sir if you insult me but don't insult the blessed one it's enough sir if you ignore me but please don't ignore the blessed one
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Re: verbal and subverbal vipassana, what kind of vipassana is possible in the 4 jhanas

Post by Ratnakar »

SteRo wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:50 pm The differentiation "verbal - subverbal" isn't clear.
Definition of verbal

1a : of, relating to, or consisting of words
b : of, relating to, or involving words rather than meaning or substance
c : consisting of or using words only and not involving action
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/verbal
Based on this it seems there is no verbal vipassana at all. And then, what is "subverbal" other than 'nonverbal'? 'Conceptual' can be both, "verbal" and 'nonverbal'.
Buddha said that you haven't silence until you silence your mind buddha called this the noble silence buddha said subverbal is mano shankara(feeling/perception) you differentiates or discerns things using your perception and not only buddha can read your thoughts buddha said he can read your current perception and feeling too for example buddha knows in which jhana you are in even though you are in thoughtless jhana(2rd jhana and higher) just by comprehending your mind with his mind for example if you don't have perception at all buddha knows that you are in cessation of perception attainment if you only perceive infinite space buddha knows you are in dimension of infinite space if you still perceive forms and equanimity then you are in fourth jhana if you perceive sukha dominantly you are in 3rd jhana if you perceive piti dominantly you are in second jhana if you still have thoughts while perceiving piti you are in first jhana in all this ways buddha knows your mind state
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Re: verbal and subverbal vipassana, what kind of vipassana is possible in the 4 jhanas

Post by SteRo »

Ratnakar wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:57 pm ...
My eyes don't work when there is no punctuation, sorry.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
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Re: verbal and subverbal vipassana, what kind of vipassana is possible in the 4 jhanas

Post by pitithefool »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 8:35 pm vipassana is not "verbal". oh dear

vipassana means "clear seeing" rather than "clear thinking" :roll:
As DooDoot said above, the kind of processing occurring in Jhana is not willed, verbal processing, but rather subverbal clear seeing.

In cognitive psychology, a clear distinction is made between controlled processing and automatic processing, where controlled processing is indicative of starting out and automatic processing is indicative of mastery or getting into a flow state.

If I may further go out on a limb,
"controlled processing" = "vitakka-vicara" = "willful thinking"
"automatic processing" = "vipasssana" = "clear seeing"
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Re: verbal and subverbal vipassana, what kind of vipassana is possible in the 4 jhanas

Post by Ratnakar »

pitithefool wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:15 am
DooDoot wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 8:35 pm vipassana is not "verbal". oh dear

vipassana means "clear seeing" rather than "clear thinking" :roll:
As DooDoot said above, the kind of processing occurring in Jhana is not willed, verbal processing, but rather subverbal clear seeing.

In cognitive psychology, a clear distinction is made between controlled processing and automatic processing, where controlled processing is indicative of starting out and automatic processing is indicative of mastery or getting into a flow state.

If I may further go out on a limb,
"controlled processing" = "vitakka-vicara" = "willful thinking"
"automatic processing" = "vipasssana" = "clear seeing"
I think both vitakka and vicara is not verbal but subverbal and by speech cease in first jhana that means your mind chatter cease there
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Re: verbal and subverbal vipassana, what kind of vipassana is possible in the 4 jhanas

Post by pitithefool »

Ratnakar wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:27 am
I think both vitakka and vicara is not verbal but subverbal and by speech cease in first jhana that means your mind chatter cease there
I kindof agree here, but I think vitakka-vicara covers both things. I think the more important distinction between the first and second jhana would be conscious and willed processing, versus unconscious, automatic processing.

The reason I say this is because the brain is already doing a tremendous amount of processing without our knowledge all the time. For instance, breathing requires processing, sitting upright requires processing, perceptions require processing, but we are not normally aware of it, nor do we make many attempts to conscious control them under normal circumstances. What we're doing in the first jhana is setting up the mind-body so that it doesn't need to have conscious and willed input to maintain its state in concentration. This is done of course by conscious and willed input but once it's set up, it can be let go of at which point we can stop paying attention to it and instead just be with the object along with piti-sukha.

I understand DD's sentiment in this regard to be similar here, if I'm not mistaken.
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