Did I experience the first jhana?

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sphairos
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Re: Did I experience the first jhana?

Post by sphairos »

In the first jhāna there is enormous joy soaking up the whole body. You won't confuse to anything else. What you describe is rather an access concentration, pre-jhāna.
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pitithefool
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Re: Did I experience the first jhana?

Post by pitithefool »

sphairos wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:24 pm In the first jhāna there is enormous joy soaking up the whole body. You won't confuse to anything else. What you describe is rather an access concentration, pre-jhāna.
The term "upacara samadhi" does not appear in the sutta pitaka at all as far as I'm aware. First jhana would then encompass the states in which piti-sukha and vitakka-vicara are present up until vitakka-vicara subside and the second jhana is entered.

This is kindof an interesting discussion topic because I don't think for one minute that access concentration isn't a useful concept. Rather, I wouldn't really want to teach it that way because that isn't how the Sutta Pitaka presents it and I find that simpler is often better when it comes to learning how to meditate.

Sphairos, let me know what you think.
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sphairos
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Re: Did I experience the first jhana?

Post by sphairos »

pitithefool wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:29 pm
sphairos wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:24 pm In the first jhāna there is enormous joy soaking up the whole body. You won't confuse to anything else. What you describe is rather an access concentration, pre-jhāna.
The term "upacara samadhi" does not appear in the sutta pitaka at all as far as I'm aware. First jhana would then encompass the states in which piti-sukha and vitakka-vicara are present up until vitakka-vicara subside and the second jhana is entered.
I think so. But enormous joy must be present, otherwise it is not jhāna.
This is kindof an interesting discussion topic because I don't think for one minute that access concentration isn't a useful concept. Rather, I wouldn't really want to teach it that way because that isn't how the Sutta Pitaka presents it and I find that simpler is often better when it comes to learning how to meditate.

Sphairos, let me know what you think.
I don't mind something being outside Suttapiṭaka, I am not a suttavādī. Clearly some treatises in it are later than the early Abhidhamma etc.

Rupert Gethin in a few articles points out, and I think correctly, that you cannot practice based solely on the Suttapiṭaka. There is just not enough instructions, even in the detailed texts such as the Satipaṭṭhāna. Practice should be guided by an experienced teacher that understands the character and mind of the student... The suttas are not exhaustive instructions, but just summaries and reminders...
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pitithefool
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Re: Did I experience the first jhana?

Post by pitithefool »

sphairos wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:58 pm
I think so. But enormous joy must be present, otherwise it is not jhāna.
Although strong piti-sukha is an excellent indicator of a strong absorption, it isn't necessary for it to gush like a broken fire hydrant for it to be jhana. To provide textual exidence, the description in MN 119 and others is as follows:

Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again & again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within & without — would nevertheless not drip;
I don't mind something being outside Suttapiṭaka, I am not a suttavādī. Clearly some treatises in it are later than the early Abhidhamma etc.

Rupert Gethin in a few articles points out, and I think correctly, that you cannot practice based solely on the Suttapiṭaka. There is just not enough instructions, even in the detailed texts such as the Satipaṭṭhāna.
I agree, the commentaries are very useful but the Buddha himself said that if they contradict the suttas or the vinaya, they are to be rejected.

This is another very interesting point too. Even though the concept of access concentration is not found in the sutta pitaka, it still presents a clear pedagogical model that I don't think necessarily contradicts with the sutta pitaka, save for a couple of instances. I would nevertheless not teach it this way for a few reasons:

Dividing the preliminary stages of concentration up like this lends to the act of trying to force an experience to be in line with a more or less rigid description of the stages and this often leads to either abject failure or the thought "I am attaining access concentration" in which the analysis of the meditation itself will becomes a distraction. In short, it seems liable to create more desire. To clarify, this isn't always true and there has been much success teaching a divided concentration all the same.

Dividing the stages so much also tends to obscure the purpose of meditation, which is to undercut the tendency of the mind to become attached to pleasure.

Lastly, giving rigid definitions can often lead to the phenomenon of "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" in which one becomes extremely discouraged because their meditation is deemed "not good enough" to those who distinguish access concentration when in reality, they should be encouraged as it is still right concentration so long as it is supported by the other 7 factors of the NEFP.

Let me know what you think, Sphairos. I'm interested to hear your counter arguments. This could be a very fruitful debate.
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Pulsar
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Re: Did I experience the first jhana?

Post by Pulsar »

OP wrote
In this state, hindrances still begin to arise
but they seem very distant and faint and they fall away by themselves almost as soon as they arise,
more as temptations to defilement that do not come to fruition,
rather than actual defilements. Is this the first jhana or samadhi or something else?
It sounds beautiful, distant from the sensory world, you appear to be doing something very right. So peaceful it sounds, your withdrawal from the sensory world.
Although entry to jhana is described as completely free of hindrances, what you describe sounds like it is
free of hindrances. You wrote
they fall away almost as soon as they arise
in which case
they do not really form? Right?
First jhana is not described as Samadhi, due to its proximity to sensory world.
Of the 4 buddhist jhanas only the last three are considered Samadhi, since the first one is
too close to sensory world to qualify as Samadhi.
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