What are the actual differences between "Hard" and "Soft" jhanas?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: What are the actual differences between "Hard" and "Soft" jhanas?

Post by Coëmgenu »

I'm pretty sure, I might be wrong, that not only is Bhante English, he's "English" English, meaning from England in the UK. Maybe I'm totally wrong. I don't know why I think that. I imagine I must have read it somewhere. Maybe I didn't.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 3072
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: What are the actual differences between "Hard" and "Soft" jhanas?

Post by Pondera »

mikenz66 wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:16 am
BrokenBones wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:01 am Hi Mike

Neither 'examples' you give imply a post jhanic state. If anything, quite the reverse. Firstly they make no mention of leaving that state and secondly they say that the meditator 'uses' that state. It states "'when' his mind..." not 'after'.
Sure, as I said, this is the heart of the disagreement, and it depends on whether the Pali is or is not implying contemporaneousness (in those suttas or in MN111) as I mentioned in this post: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=39616&p=613739#p613739
I don't have anywhere near the skill in Pali necessary to adjudicate the matter, I'm simply pointing out the two possibilities.

:heart:
Mike
Thank you for your neutral position on the matter. I don’t want or intend for anyone’s panties to get in a twist over this. Hard ... lite - whatever works for you.

But this quote in particular seems to imply a consistent “immersion” in samadhi and (therefore) jhana.
When my mind had immersed in samādhi like this—purified, bright, flawless, rid of corruptions, pliable, workable, steady, and imperturbable—I extended it toward knowledge of the ending of defilements. ...
https://suttacentral.net/mn36/en/sujato
However, I appreciate that others see it differently and I’m not going to take a dogmatic stance on it.

I’m sure heavy jhana practitioners emerge from jhana with a supple and malleable mind suited to vipasanna. I have faith in that.

On the other hand, I adhere to the Upanisa Sutta - which (I believe) entails the following - tranquility; pleasure; and concentration - leading to “knowledge and vision of things as they really are.” With no break in the jhana.

However, as I’ve said, with disenchantment and dispassion and release - there is a turning away from the pleasure and rapture of jhana. An “emergence” of sorts.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22395
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: What are the actual differences between "Hard" and "Soft" jhanas?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:50 am I'm pretty sure, I might be wrong, that not only is Bhante English, he's "English" English, meaning from England in the UK. Maybe I'm totally wrong. I don't know why I think that. I imagine I must have read it somewhere. Maybe I didn't.
From Yorkshire I believe.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 6492
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: What are the actual differences between "Hard" and "Soft" jhanas?

Post by Dhammanando »

pitithefool wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:07 am That's ok, I'm actually recanting that statement but what I meant by "contact does not a jhana make" is a non-standard word order rearrangment to the phrase "contact at the five senses means you are not in jhana".

Is English your first language?
It''s both my mother tongue and one of the languages in which I was an accredited translator for the Icelandic Foreign Ministry. I was also in charge of testing other would-be translators. Had any candidate ever proposed that "contact at the five senses means you are not in jhana" might be faithfully paraphrased as "contact does not a jhana make," I'd have failed him.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
User avatar
pitithefool
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:39 am

Re: What are the actual differences between "Hard" and "Soft" jhanas?

Post by pitithefool »

Dhammanando wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:38 pm
It''s both my mother tongue and one of the languages in which I was an accredited translator for the Icelandic Foreign Ministry. I was also in charge of testing other would-be translators. Had any candidate ever proposed that "contact at the five senses means you are not in jhana" might be faithfully paraphrased as "contact does not a jhana make," I'd have failed him.
My apologies that must have come off very rude. That's interesting though. That way I said it is a pretty common idiomatic rephrasing. Perhaps its peculiar to my dialect? Either way, "something something does not a something make" is meant to mean "if A, then not B". Sorry that didn't come accross the way I intended.

Here's an article about this
https://english.stackexchange.com/quest ... a-noun-mak
Please note: This profile picture is not actually a picture of the user.
User avatar
pitithefool
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:39 am

Re: What are the actual differences between "Hard" and "Soft" jhanas?

Post by pitithefool »

pitithefool wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:44 pm
My apologies that must have come off very rude. That's interesting though. That way I said it is a pretty common idiomatic rephrasing. Perhaps its peculiar to my dialect? Either way, "something something does not a something make" is meant to mean "if A, then not B". Sorry that didn't come accross the way I intended.

Here's an article about this
https://english.stackexchange.com/quest ... a-noun-mak
After some research, it seems that word order expression does have origins in a translation of the phrase "one swallow does not a summer make" opposed to "huge flocks of swallows do indeed indicate summer". My phrasing "contact at the senses does not a jhana make" stands opposed to "no contact at the senses does indeed indicate a jhana". Is that not correct?

It seems the original is interpreted as
One instance does not mean a trend.

Whereas my usage means
One instance means that it is not a trend.

So then I did use it incorrectly? My apologies.. :bow:
Please note: This profile picture is not actually a picture of the user.
Post Reply