You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

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frank k
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You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by frank k »

You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... -1072.html
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pitithefool
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by pitithefool »

frank k wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:03 pm You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... -1072.html
I think this is similar in semantic to an old debate in the field of cognitive psychology of whether or not there is such a thing as parallel processing.

The science shows that there is indeed a great amount of processing that can occur in the mind without our conscious input.

I believe you can "hear sounds" in the jhanas inasmuch as the brain receives the sensory input signal and processes it accordingly.

"Hearing a sound" can also mean "paying attention to it", "thinking about it" etc. and seems to cover a whole spectrum of sensory processing.

Back to the point about parallel processing, cognitive psych defines two types of processing: conscious, willed, controlled processing and mostly unconscious, automatic processing. The way I see it, controlled processing fits nicely with "vitakka-vicara" and automatic processing fits more with "vipassana". Vitakka-vicara is setting up the conditions for vipassana to occur on a sub-verbal or even sub-conscious level in the higher jhanas.

Please, let me know if you have critiques or if I can clarify
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BrokenBones
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by BrokenBones »

frank k wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:03 pm You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... -1072.html
Ven. Thanissaro nails it... great article.
pegembara
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by pegembara »

Sounds are derived from forms. So should still be present in the rupa jhanas.

The arupa or formless jhanas means there are no more forms or their derivatives -sights, sounds, smells, taste, touch.
"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of the infinitude of space.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by confusedlayman »

At max sound can be in first jhana bht jhana is not purified.. however sound cant be in any jhana
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
pegembara
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by pegembara »

In the rupa jhanas are the five senses are not completely shut down by definition. Otherwise, one would already be in the arupa dimension.
Sariputta entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. Whatever qualities there are in the fourth jhana — a feeling of equanimity, neither pleasure nor pain; an unconcern due to serenity of awareness;[3] singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.
Only the mind is present in the arupa. No sights, sounds, smells, taste or touch. By this stage or even earlier, the thoughts have already stopped.

dimension of the infinitude of space
dimension of the infinitude of consciousness
dimension of nothingness
dimension of neither perception nor non-perception

Everything finally ceases except life faculty in cessation of feeling & perception
"In-&-out breaths are bodily; these are things tied up with the body. That's why in-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Having first directed one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech. That's why directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental; these are things tied up with the mind. That's why perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications."

"But when a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, which things cease first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Mental fabrication is perception and feeling NOT thoughts which are verbal fabrications.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by Ceisiwr »

pegembara wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:48 am In the rupa jhanas are the five senses are not completely shut down by definition. Otherwise, one would already be in the arupa dimension.
This is the logical fallacy of denying the antecedent:

If P, then Q.
Therefore, if not P, then not Q.

If you are a ski instructor, then you have a job.
You are not a ski instructor
Therefore, you have no job

If you are in the formless then you do not experience the 5 senses
You are not in the formless attainments
Therefore, you are experiencing the 5 senses

I hope the fallacy is obvious now.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Dhammanando
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by Dhammanando »

frank k wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:03 pm You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?
In your link I don't see any discussion of the oxymoron question.

And are you sure you're using the right word? I mean if it's your contention that the name "Theravāda" is inaptly applied to the Buddhist school of Sri Lanka, Burma, Thailand, etc., then surely the word would be "misnomer" (or "catachresis" if one prefers show-off Greek words), not "oxymoron".
Oxymorons in the narrow sense are a rhetorical device used deliberately by the speaker, and intended to be understood as such by the listener. In a more extended sense, the term "oxymoron" has also been applied to inadvertent or incidental contradictions, as in the case of "dead metaphors" ("barely clothed" or "terribly good"). Lederer (1990), in the spirit of "recreational linguistics", goes as far as to construct "logological oxymorons"[jargon] such as reading the word nook composed of "no" and "ok" or the surname Noyes as composed of "no" plus "yes", or far-fetched punning such as "divorce court", "U.S. Army Intelligence" or "press release". There are a number of single-word oxymorons built from "dependent morphemes" (i.e. no longer a productive compound in English, but loaned as a compound from a different language), as with pre-posterous (lit. "with the hinder part before", compare hysteron proteron, "upside-down", "head over heels", "ass-backwards" etc.) or sopho-more (an artificial Greek compound, lit. "wise-foolish").

The most common form of oxymoron involves an adjective–noun combination of two words, but they can also be devised in the meaning of sentences or phrases. One classic example of the use of oxymorons in English literature can be found in this example from Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet, where Romeo strings together thirteen in a row:

O brawling love! O loving hate!
O anything of nothing first create!
O heavy lightness, serious vanity!
Misshapen chaos of well-seeming forms!
Feather of lead, bright smoke, cold fire, sick health!
Still-waking sleep, that is not what it is!
This love feel I, that feel no love in this.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxymoron
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
pegembara
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by pegembara »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:54 am
pegembara wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:48 am In the rupa jhanas are the five senses are not completely shut down by definition. Otherwise, one would already be in the arupa dimension.
This is the logical fallacy of denying the antecedent:

If P, then Q.
Therefore, if not P, then not Q.

If you are a ski instructor, then you have a job.
You are not a ski instructor
Therefore, you have no job

If you are in the formless then you do not experience the 5 senses
You are not in the formless attainments
Therefore, you are experiencing the 5 senses

I hope the fallacy is obvious now.
If you’re a ski instructor you have a job.
Or if you have a job you could be a ski instructor or receptionist or salesperson etc.
If you have no job you’re by definition not a ski instructor or any other work.

If you’re in the arupa you’re not in the rupa sphere. And vice versa.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
auto
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by auto »

sadda,
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/s/sadda/ wrote:Concise Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera
sadda:[m.] sound; noise; a word.
i think there is a link between sadda and vācā
https://suttacentral.net/sn36.11/en/sujato wrote:For someone who has attained the first absorption, speech has ceased.
Paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ samāpannassa vācā niruddhā hoti.
vācā,
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/v/v%C4%81c%C4%81/ wrote:Buddhist Dictionary by NYANATILOKA MAHATHERA
vācā:'speech'.On right sp.s.magga (3),sacca (IV.3).- Low talk,s.tiracchāna-kathā.
auto
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by auto »

confusedlayman wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:44 am At max sound can be in first jhana bht jhana is not purified.. however sound cant be in any jhana
So, but can hearing happen in a jhana? is it possible to hear that there is no sound?
On what basis someone knows there is no sound in a jhana?
auto
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by auto »

https://suttacentral.net/vb16/en/thittila wrote: The five types of sense consciousness are not cognitive; Pañca viññāṇā anābhogā
by the five types of sense consciousness one discriminates no state whatever other than mere falling in (i.e. entry of the object)
Pañcahi viññāṇehi na kañci dhammaṁ paṭivijānāti aññatra abhinipātamattā
..
by the five types of sense consciousness one does not attain, does not emerge (from samādhi);
even immediately following the five types of sense consciousness one does not attain, does not emerge; by the five types of sense consciousness one does not pass away, does not arise (i.e. is not re-born)..
5 types of sense consciousness,
are low;
are characteristic of the plane of desire;
are not characteristic of the plane of form;
are not characteristic of the formless plane;
are included (i.e. are mundane);
are not “not included” (i.e. not supramundane);
are of no fixed (resultant time);
do not tend to release.

Have arisen sense-bases;
have arisen objects;
have pre-existing sense-bases;
have pre-existing objects;
have internal sense-bases;
have external objects;
have non-disintegrated sense-bases;
have non-disintegrated objects;
have different sense-bases;
have different objects;
do not experience each other’s object;
do not arise without advertence;
do not arise without attention;
do not arise consecutively,
do not arise simultaneously;
do not arise immediately following each other.
if not compare to pali then one would think cognitive and discrimination mean something else. I think the main thing still is about dhamma not the sound(object), as the consciousness doesn't discern between kusala and akusala dhamma and won't get liberated on its own.

Future isn't mentioned. Its either you notice arising(falling in, thanks to the consciousness) or there is already an object.
Last edited by auto on Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by Ceisiwr »

pegembara wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:55 am
If you’re in the arupa you’re not in the rupa sphere. And vice versa.
Whilst in the jhānā there is rūpa, but you have a lot of work ahead of you to then claim on that basis the 5 senses are still experienced. As far as it stands, you have leaped to a conclusion.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
auto
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:56 pm
pegembara wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:55 am
If you’re in the arupa you’re not in the rupa sphere. And vice versa.
Whilst in the jhānā there is rūpa, but you have a lot of work ahead of you to then claim on that basis the 5 senses are still experienced. As far as it stands, you have leaped to a conclusion.
i'm curious how do you not hear sound in a jhana? you seem have leaped to the conclusion.
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by confusedlayman »

auto wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:01 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:56 pm
pegembara wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:55 am
If you’re in the arupa you’re not in the rupa sphere. And vice versa.
Whilst in the jhānā there is rūpa, but you have a lot of work ahead of you to then claim on that basis the 5 senses are still experienced. As far as it stands, you have leaped to a conclusion.
i'm curious how do you not hear sound in a jhana? you seem have leaped to the conclusion.
because u dont hear it and u know it..
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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