You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
auto
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by auto »

form,

All form is that which is,
https://suttacentral.net/ds2.2.3/en/caf_rhysdavids wrote: ..
not applied and sustained thinking,
not “applied, but only sustained thinking”,
neither “applied nor sustained thinking”,
not “accompanied by joy”,
not “accompanied by ease”,
not “accompanied by disinterestedness”,
..
,
https://suttacentral.net/an3.61/en/sujato wrote: Seeing a sight with the eye, one is preoccupied with a sight that’s a basis for happiness or sadness or equanimity.
Cakkhunā rūpaṁ disvā somanassaṭṭhāniyaṁ rūpaṁ upavicarati domanassaṭṭhāniyaṁ rūpaṁ upavicarati upekkhāṭṭhāniyaṁ rūpaṁ upavicarati,
all form..,
related to the universe of sense,
not related to the universe of form,
nor to that of the formless,
form what is derived,
The spheres of …
vision
hearing
smell,
taste,
body sensibility;
the sphere of …
sights,
odours,
sounds
tastes;
woman-faculty,
man-faculty,
life-faculty,
intimation by …
act,
speech;
the element of space;
i think the sphere of hearing is what one is preoccupied when hearing a sound with the ear. Just like one could be occupied with the femininity or masculinity when seeing a male or female body with the eye.

Jhana descriptions have sukha and dukha, so i assume these feelings are based on something. If there is no sound then what is the base for these feelings to arise?
also if there is no occupation(with the sound, sight etc) then what is there to be released?
auto
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by auto »

confusedlayman wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:21 pm
auto wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:01 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:56 pm

Whilst in the jhānā there is rūpa, but you have a lot of work ahead of you to then claim on that basis the 5 senses are still experienced. As far as it stands, you have leaped to a conclusion.
i'm curious how do you not hear sound in a jhana? you seem have leaped to the conclusion.
because u dont hear it and u know it..
So is jhana less than a mundane, at least here you can hear sounds which can be liberating.
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by confusedlayman »

auto wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:35 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:21 pm
auto wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:01 pm
i'm curious how do you not hear sound in a jhana? you seem have leaped to the conclusion.
because u dont hear it and u know it..
So is jhana less than a mundane, at least here you can hear sounds which can be liberating.
sound is disturbance to peaceful states of jhana so sound is not liberating but hinderance ..
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by auto »

confusedlayman wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:39 pm
auto wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:35 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:21 pm

because u dont hear it and u know it..
So is jhana less than a mundane, at least here you can hear sounds which can be liberating.
sound is disturbance to peaceful states of jhana so sound is not liberating but hinderance ..
"when attending to the forms"=ear hearing a sound..
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.200.than.html wrote:"Furthermore, there is the case where the mind of a monk, when attending to forms, doesn't leap up at forms, doesn't grow confident, steadfast, or released in forms. But when attending to the formless, his mind leaps up at the formless, grows confident, steadfast, & released in the formless.
..consciousness doesn't get released in forms. It means arupa/formless realm affinity is there.
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by confusedlayman »

auto wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:57 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:39 pm
auto wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:35 pm
So is jhana less than a mundane, at least here you can hear sounds which can be liberating.
sound is disturbance to peaceful states of jhana so sound is not liberating but hinderance ..
"when attending to the forms"=ear hearing a sound..
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.200.than.html wrote:"Furthermore, there is the case where the mind of a monk, when attending to forms, doesn't leap up at forms, doesn't grow confident, steadfast, or released in forms. But when attending to the formless, his mind leaps up at the formless, grows confident, steadfast, & released in the formless.
..consciousness doesn't get released in forms. It means already arupa/formless realm affinity.
u can hear sound in first jhana or access concentration but that is not purified samadhi

but If u enter properly u should hear sound from 1st jhana onwards... this is how it is irrespective of what u say because this is how some people experience and its supported by sutta
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by Ceisiwr »

auto wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:01 pm i'm curious how do you not hear sound in a jhana? you seem have leaped to the conclusion.
Simply put, via non-intention and attention towards the senses as per MN 28. For further non-leaped to conclusions as to why the 5 senses are not experienced in the jhānā please see here: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=39705&start=45
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by pegembara »

auto wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:26 pm
form what is derived,
The spheres of …
vision
hearing
smell,
taste,
body sensibility;

the sphere of …
sights,
odours,
sounds
tastes;
woman-faculty,
man-faculty,
life-faculty,
intimation by …
act,
speech;
the element of space;
:goodpost:

That rupa is still present in rupa jhanas is an oxymoron. That is where anicca can be directly observed.
"If anyone were to say, 'The eye is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable. The arising & falling away of the eye are discerned. And when its arising & falling away are discerned, it would follow that 'My self arises & falls away.' That's why it wouldn't be tenable if anyone were to say, 'The eye is the self.' So the eye is not-self. If anyone were to say, 'Forms are the self,' that wouldn't be tenable... Thus the eye is not-self and forms are not-self. If anyone were to say, 'Consciousness at the eye is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable... Thus the eye is not-self, forms are not-self, consciousness at the eye is not-self. If anyone were to say, 'Contact at the eye is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable... Thus the eye is not-self, forms are not-self, consciousness at the eye is not-self, contact at the eye is not-self. If anyone were to say, 'Feeling is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable... Thus the eye is not-self, forms are not-self, consciousness at the eye is not-self, contact at the eye is not-self, feeling is not self. If anyone were to say, 'Craving is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable. The arising & falling away of craving are discerned. And when its arising & falling away are discerned, it would follow that 'My self arises & falls away.' That's why it wouldn't be tenable if anyone were to say, 'Craving is the self.' Thus the eye is not-self, forms are not-self, consciousness at the eye is not-self, contact at the eye is not-self, feeling is not self, craving is not-self.

"If anyone were to say, 'The ear is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
How does one become disenchanted with sounds or observe anicca if you can't hear?
"Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with the eye, disenchanted with forms, disenchanted with consciousness at the eye, disenchanted with contact at the eye, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with craving.

"He grows disenchanted with the ear...
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:58 pm
auto wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:01 pm i'm curious how do you not hear sound in a jhana? you seem have leaped to the conclusion.
Simply put, via non-intention and attention towards the senses as per MN 28. For further non-leaped to conclusions as to why the 5 senses are not experienced in the jhānā please see here: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=39705&start=45
Clap your hands together, the sound you hear is old kamma, which is a result of actions/kamma made in a desire realm(clapping your hands together). That sound will be the basis for feelings.
Its possible to use sound-contact to incite feelings by using body, speech or mental sankharas for to maneuver to find the ahara/food on what the sound(in future tense)will come to be. It is possible because of the actions done in the desire realm.
Sound-contact before it is sound, needs concentration. Hearing is concentration, means your mind is interested in the sound and thus you are in a jhana realm.
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:49 pm The same argument for sound. Should sound arise then one is not in the 1st jhāna. The implication of this is that whilst in jhāna one does not experience the 5 senses, only the 6th with an image (rūpa) as object.
you are going by the visuddhimagga counterpart sign theory here i assume, at least it looks like it.

I think supermundane and mundane are differentiated by the understanding, the sound still is the same sound. Mundane doesn't have kamma view other than a slogan this is because of my kamma, also is without iddhis.
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by auto »

4 jhanas are also called ābhicetasiko diṭṭhadhammasukhavihāro
https://suttacentral.net/an5.179/en/sujato wrote:This is the first blissful meditation in the present life belonging to the higher mind, which they achieve in order to purify the unpurified mind and cleanse the unclean mind.
Ayamassa paṭhamo ābhicetasiko diṭṭhadhammasukhavihāro adhigato hoti avisuddhassa cittassa visuddhiyā apariyodātassa cittassa pariyodapanāya.
cool part is, that it is gotten by having experiential confidence in the Buddha,
https://suttacentral.net/an5.179/en/sujato wrote: And what are the four blissful meditations in the present life belonging to the higher mind that they get when they want, without trouble or difficulty?
Katamesaṁ catunnaṁ ābhicetasikānaṁ diṭṭhadhammasukhavihārānaṁ nikāmalābhī hoti akicchalābhī akasiralābhī?
It’s when a noble disciple has experiential confidence in the Buddha:
Idha, sāriputta, ariyasāvako buddhe aveccappasādena samannāgato hoti:
‘That Blessed One is perfected, a fully awakened Buddha, accomplished in knowledge and conduct, holy, knower of the world, supreme guide for those who wish to train, teacher of gods and humans, awakened, blessed.’
‘itipi so bhagavā arahaṁ sammāsambuddho vijjācaraṇasampanno sugato lokavidū anuttaro purisadammasārathi, satthā devamanussānaṁ buddho bhagavā’ti.
and not to mention Buddha in the world is anyone who have completed the path.
https://suttacentral.net/an3.90/en/sujato wrote: they call them a ‘trainee on the path’,
Tamāhu sekhaṁ paṭipadaṁ,
and ‘one living a pure life’.
atho saṁsuddhacāriyaṁ;
But a wise one who has gone to the end of the path
Tamāhu loke sambuddhaṁ,
they call a ‘Buddha’ in the world.
dhīraṁ paṭipadantaguṁ.
senses are to be guarded,
https://suttacentral.net/an3.90/en/sujato wrote: The higher ethics, the higher mind,
Adhisīlaṁ adhicittaṁ,
and the higher wisdom should be practiced
adhipaññañca vīriyavā;
by those energetic, strong, and resolute,
Thāmavā dhitimā jhāyī,
practicing absorption, mindful, with guarded senses.
sato guttindriyo care.
gutta,
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/g/gutta/ wrote:Concise Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera
gutta:[pp.of gopeti] guarded; protected; watchful.
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/g/guttindriya/ wrote:Concise Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera
guttindriya:[(gutta + indriya) adj.] having guarded senses.
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by Ṭhānuttamo »

frank k wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:03 pm You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?
Dear Frank,
I would answer in the negative that the Theravāda is an oxymoron. The sutta you adduced actually lends credence to the fact that there is no sound perceived in the first jhāna ,nor discursive speech considering other contexts: "Speech has ceased for one who has entered the first jhāna (paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa vācā niruddhā hoti; SN 36.11).

AN 10.72 clearly says that there is no sound in the first jhāna. Let me prove that point. It says, to begin with: "Sound is a thorn for the first jhāna" (paṭhamassa jhānassa saddo kaṇṭako). Considering that alone, one may come to the conclusion that this refers either to some time before the actual attainment, that is, that sound is an obstruction to the attainment of the first jhāna, or that sound can somehow influence the already attained jhāna state negatively.

That the latter option is what the sutta intends can be seen by the explanation it gives for the subsequent higher jhānas. To quote what it has to offer regarding the second: "Applied and sustained application [of mind] are a thorn for the second jhāna (dutiyassa jhānassa vitakkavicārā kaṇṭakā). The sutta thus establishes that it is speaking of phenomena not present in the jhānas it discusses since we know that applied and sustained application [of mind] (vitakkavicārā) are certainly not present in the second jhāna. Same with the phenomena it takes up for the rest of the four jhānas and the attainment of cessation. This has already been dealt with in the Kathāvatthu: https://suttacentral.net/kv18.8/en/aung ... ight=false

This is a reply of Ā. Brahmāli following a suggestion of Ā. Ṭhānissaro that the thorns under discussion merely make it difficult to enter or remain in the relevant state rather than being phenomena opposed to these and non-occurring therein:
He [Ā. Ṭhānissaro] states, “thus to say that directed thought and evaluation is a thorn for the second jhana means that these mental activities make it difficult to enter or remain in the second jhana”. But this is incorrect. Vitakka and vicāra (his “directed thought and evaluation”) are specifically said not to exist in the second jhāna. This means they have to be abandoned prior to entry, and if they re-arise after the entry, then one has already left the attainment. In other words, these two factors of the first jhāna cannot exist in the second jhāna. (AT’s actual wording is quite ambiguous, but regardless it is misleading.) When he then states, based on this flawed argument, that this means “noise is a thorn for the first jhana simply means that noise makes it difficult to enter or remain there,” he is drawing a conclusion that is unwarranted. In fact, basing himself on the precedent of the second jhāna, the only logical conclusion is that noise is incompatible with the first jhāna, and that this is the meaning of ‘thorn’, at least in this case. As so often, we should be careful with being too quick to dismiss the understanding of the commentaries.
In fact, the commentary to AN.72 seems to state that is a "thorn in the sense of destruction" (vijjhanaṭṭhena kaṇṭako). Given that both interpretations are cogent, I would opt to go with the additional evidence that is found in the commentary.
Last edited by Ṭhānuttamo on Sun May 08, 2022 1:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by Ṭhānuttamo »

auto wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:01 pm I'm curious how do you not hear sound in a jhana?
The sutta at issue says that sound is not present in the first jhāna (see above).
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by auto »

A. Bhikkhu wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 1:25 pm
auto wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:01 pm I'm curious how do you not hear sound in a jhana?
The sutta at issue says that sound is not present in the first jhāna (see above).
nah, i don't buy the no sound in jhana scheme.
https://suttacentral.net/sn9.8/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: “There are lots of annoying sounds
“Bahūhi saddā paccūhā,
that an austere ascetic must endure.
khamitabbā tapassinā;
But they mustn’t be dismayed by that,
Na tena maṅku hotabbaṁ,
for that’s not what defiles you.
na hi tena kilissati.
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by Ceisiwr »

auto wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 1:50 pm
A. Bhikkhu wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 1:25 pm
auto wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:01 pm I'm curious how do you not hear sound in a jhana?
The sutta at issue says that sound is not present in the first jhāna (see above).
nah, i don't buy the no sound in jhana scheme.
https://suttacentral.net/sn9.8/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: “There are lots of annoying sounds
“Bahūhi saddā paccūhā,
that an austere ascetic must endure.
khamitabbā tapassinā;
But they mustn’t be dismayed by that,
Na tena maṅku hotabbaṁ,
for that’s not what defiles you.
na hi tena kilissati.
MN28 gives us a possible idea of how it can occur. If your attention is solely on one thing, say the nimitta, then the other senses won’t be experienced since attention is required to experience seeing, hearing etc.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 1:58 pm MN28 gives us a possible idea of how it can occur. If your attention is solely on one thing, say the nimitta, then the other senses won’t be experienced since attention is required to experience seeing, hearing etc.
you mean this?
https://suttacentral.net/mn28/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:Though the eye is intact internally and exterior sights come into range, so long as there’s no corresponding engagement, there’s no manifestation of the corresponding type of consciousness.
Ajjhattikañceva, āvuso, cakkhuṁ aparibhinnaṁ hoti bāhirā ca rūpā āpāthaṁ āgacchanti, no ca tajjo samannāhāro hoti, neva tāva tajjassa viññāṇabhāgassa pātubhāvo hoti.
samannāhāro
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/s/samann%C4%81h%C4%81ra/ wrote:PTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary
Samannāhāra,[saṁ+anu+āhāra] concentration,bringing together M.I,190 sq.; DA.I,123; Miln.189.(Page 683)
it prolly means when the internal and external ojas doesn't meet.
Tin Mon abhidhamma p245 wrote:Material Phenomena arising from âhàra
The nutritive essence, ojà, is present in all råpa-kalàpas
both inside the body (internal) and outside the body
(external). The external food, which is eaten, is digested
in the stomach and dispersed through blood to all parts
of the body. So the internal ojà and the external ojà meet
in every part of the body. The time they meet is called
the arising instant (uppàda). After this instant, the static
instant (thãti) is reached. From this static instant the
combination of internal and external ojàs starts
producing aharaja-råpas and goes on producing them
at every small instant until the combination terminates.
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by Ṭhānuttamo »

auto wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 1:50 pm Nah, i don't buy the no sound in jhana scheme.
You are free to "buy" and choose according to your heart's content. :)
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