kalyāṇamitta and citta nimitta

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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auto
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kalyāṇamitta and citta nimitta

Post by auto »

imitation,
https://suttacentral.net/an6.67/en/sujato wrote: Without fulfilling the practice dealing with supplementary regulations, it’s impossible to fulfill the practice of a trainee.
‘Ābhisamācārikaṁ dhammaṁ aparipūretvā sekhaṁ dhammaṁ paripūressatī’ti netaṁ ṭhānaṁ vijjati.
solitary practice,
https://suttacentral.net/an6.68/en/sujato wrote: Without learning the patterns of the mind, it’s impossible to fulfill right view.
‘Cittassa nimittaṁ agaṇhanto sammādiṭṭhiṁ paripūressatī’ti netaṁ ṭhānaṁ vijjati.
kalyāṇamitto,
https://suttacentral.net/an6.67/en/sujato wrote:It’s possible that a mendicant with good friends, companions, and associates, while frequenting, accompanying, and attending, and following their example, will fulfill the practice dealing with the supplementary regulations.
‘So vata, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kalyāṇamitto kalyāṇasahāyo kalyāṇasampavaṅko, kalyāṇamitte sevamāno bhajamāno payirupāsamāno, tesañca diṭṭhānugatiṁ āpajjamāno ābhisamācārikaṁ dhammaṁ paripūressatī’ti ṭhānametaṁ vijjati.
citta nimitta,
https://suttacentral.net/an6.68/en/sujato wrote:For someone who takes pleasure in being alone in seclusion, it’s possible to learn the patterns of the mind.
‘Eko paviveke abhiramanto cittassa nimittaṁ gahessatī’ti ṭhānametaṁ vijjati.
Alino
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Re: kalyāṇamitta and citta nimitta

Post by Alino »

I prefere citta nimitta be "the sight of the mind" rather "the patterns of the mind".
Why?
Because with the "sight of the mind" we take perspective, or make a step back from the whole mind as such. Be doing that we see it directly as not me, not mine, not myself. It's a liberating wisdom.
And as I understand "patterns of the mind" - it mean that we within the mind but just see how it works.

It's like going outside of the car and realising that you are not the car. And being inside the car and watching how it works...

Just an imho based on subjective comprehention...
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
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Eko Care
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Re: kalyāṇamitta and citta nimitta

Post by Eko Care »

Cittassa nimitta aslo appeared in the Sūda Sutta.
https://suttacentral.net/sn47.8/pli/ms
https://suttacentral.net/sn47.8/en/bodhi
Suda Sutta - SN47.8 Meditation is like good cooking, by Piya Tan -pdf (696.7 KB)
Sūda Sutta (sn47.8) - What exactly is the “mind’s hint”?
Ven Sujato says:
The Pali phrase here is cittassa nimitta or something similar. The meaning of nimitta in such contexts is, I think, fairly clear, but difficult to capture in translation. The meaning of nimitta in the early texts is not the same as it was used later on.

To understand the word nimitta, we must appreciate that it spans the semantic spectrum between a “sign” and a “cause”. As a “sign”, it is often something that appears before something else, as the dawn precedes the sunrise. Of course, it is not always easy to tell whether something just happens to precede something else, or whether it causes it, so these senses get conflated. The idea is that you observe patterns of phenomena, learning the way things tend to flow.

I would define it thus in the early texts:

In meditation, a nimitta is any aspect of experience which, when focused on, tends to promote the growth of similar or related qualities.

The samathanimitta is a quality that you focus on, such as the tranquil breath, that tends to promote the growth of tranquil states of mind. It need not be a meditation subject per se, but may be simply the feeling of calmness.
The paggahanimitta is something on which you attend, such as a reflection on death, that stimulates energy and effort.
The samādhinimitta is that which gives rise to samādhi, eg. the basic meditation subject AKA satipaṭṭhāna.
The cittassa nimitta means more generally understanding the qualities that promote or degrade different qualities of mind. Thus as the cook’s behavior is modified by noticing the King’s preferences, a meditator learns how the mind responds to different stimuli and responds accordingly.
Alino
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Re: kalyāṇamitta and citta nimitta

Post by Alino »

I still disagree with Venerable Ajahn...
Why?

Because it is said that without citta minitta there is no right view, so there is no direct knowledge of 4 Noble Truth, no experience of Nibbana, there is no Transcendental Wisdom, wisdom that transcended experience as such...

But from explanation of Venerable Ajahn we can see that what he is speak about is not transcendental wisdom which transcends experience as a whole, but as mondain wisdom based on experience, dependant on experiance, conditioned by experience of knowing what king likes to eat.

Citta nimitta need to give a transcendental wisdom in order to obtain Right View, but if we translate it as "patterns of the mind" - it still pertain to mondain level of wisdom.

Going out of a car and seeing a whole car, and learning how to drive a car - are different things. First is free from dangers of a car, second is liable to death...

That's why, personally I préfère "sight of the mind" rather "patterns of the mind"...
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
auto
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Re: kalyāṇamitta and citta nimitta

Post by auto »

Alino wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:20 pm Because it is said that without citta minitta there is no right view, so there is no direct knowledge of 4 Noble Truth, no experience of Nibbana, there is no Transcendental Wisdom, wisdom that transcended experience as such...
Right few consists of yoniso manasikara, which is about focusing on nimitta(sign) what decreases greed, hatred and delusion(three poisons). These three poisons are makers of signs,
https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/sujato wrote: Greed, hate, and delusion are makers of signs.
Rāgo kho, āvuso, nimittakaraṇo, doso nimittakaraṇo, moho nimittakaraṇo.
i didn't post entire Sutta(an6.68), it mentions viveka(solitude), the citta nimitta is thinking(vitakka) if to compare it with sn9.11
https://suttacentral.net/sn9.11/en/sujato wrote: Now at that time that mendicant, during their day’s meditation, was thinking bad, unskillful thoughts, that is:
Tena kho pana samayena so bhikkhu divāvihāragato pāpake akusale vitakke vitakketi, seyyathidaṁ—
sensual, malicious, and cruel thoughts.
kāmavitakkaṁ, byāpādavitakkaṁ, vihiṁsāvitakkaṁ.
improper attention increases makers of signs.
https://suttacentral.net/sn9.11/en/sujato wrote: “Because of improper attention,
“Ayoniso manasikārā,
you’re consumed by your thoughts.
so vitakkehi khajjasi;
When you’ve given up irrationality,
Ayoniso paṭinissajja,
make sure your thoughts are rational.
yoniso anucintaya.
So the thoughts what decrease greed, hatred and delusion are,
https://suttacentral.net/sn9.11/en/sujato wrote:Thinking about the Teacher, the teaching,
Satthāraṁ dhammamārabbha,
the Saṅgha, and your own ethics,
saṅghaṁ sīlāni attano;
you’ll find gladness,
Adhigacchasi pāmojjaṁ,
and rapture and bliss as well, no doubt.
pītisukhamasaṁsayaṁ;
And when you’re full of joy,
Tato pāmojjabahulo,
you’ll make an end to suffering.”
dukkhassantaṁ karissasī”ti.
Alino
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Re: kalyāṇamitta and citta nimitta

Post by Alino »

I can't agree:(

For me Right View is penetration to the 4NT (or Sotapatti).

Also, as I understand, citta nimitta or sign of the mind can be related to direct vision of the mind as it is (not me, not mine, not myself), that's why it's a "sign" because it is seen directly. In other words citta nimitta is about wisdom. Wisdom is thoughtless, it transcends thoughts and all sankaras, so it can not be vittaka...
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
auto
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Re: kalyāṇamitta and citta nimitta

Post by auto »

Alino wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:59 pm I can't agree:(

For me Right View is penetration to the 4NT (or Sotapatti).

Also, as I understand, citta nimitta or sign of the mind can be related to direct vision of the mind as it is (not me, not mine, not myself), that's why it's a "sign" because it is seen directly. In other words citta nimitta is about wisdom. Wisdom is thoughtless, it transcends thoughts and all sankaras, so it can not be vittaka...
are you equating nimitta as something empty of self?
.
Dukkha is what has come to be.
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.31/en/sujato wrote:“Sir, one truly sees with right wisdom that this has come to be.
“Bhūtamidanti, bhante, yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya passati.
Firstly one tries to escape suffering by practicing for disillusionment.. of dukkha,
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.31/en/sujato wrote:Seeing this, one is practicing for disillusionment, dispassion, and cessation regarding what has come to be.
Bhūtamidanti yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya disvā bhūtassa nibbidāya virāgāya nirodhāya paṭipanno hoti.
this line could be why it(sn12.31) is about noble truths, namely tanha here,
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.31/en/sujato wrote: One truly sees with right wisdom that it originated with that as fuel.
Tadāhārasambhavanti yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya passati.
see this translation of 'as it is',
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/y/yath%C4%81bh%C5%ABta/ wrote: Concise Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera
yathābhūta:[adj.] conformity with the truth.
there is a sutta what mentions yonisomanasikara and words of another as requirements for right view.
https://suttacentral.net/an2.118-129/en/sujato wrote:“There are two conditions for the arising of right view.
“Dveme, bhikkhave, paccayā sammādiṭṭhiyā uppādāya.
What two?
Katame dve?
The words of another and proper attention.
Parato ca ghoso, yoniso ca manasikāro.
These are the two conditions for the arising of right view.”
Ime kho, bhikkhave, dve paccayā sammādiṭṭhiyā uppādāyā”ti.
Alino
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Re: kalyāṇamitta and citta nimitta

Post by Alino »

Indeed, yonisomanasikara is the key... I am just saying that from my perspective sign of the mind is à better traduction of citta nimitta. But after reflecting about "patterns of the mind" translation - it seems to be a wise way to encourage peoples to be attentive to their minds...

Be well !🙏😊
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
auto
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: kalyāṇamitta and citta nimitta

Post by auto »

Alino wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:45 pm Indeed, yonisomanasikara is the key... I am just saying that from my perspective sign of the mind is à better traduction of citta nimitta. But after reflecting about "patterns of the mind" translation - it seems to be a wise way to encourage peoples to be attentive to their minds...

Be well !🙏😊
patterns of mind in relation to
https://suttacentral.net/sn47.8/en/sujato wrote: But that cook didn’t take their master’s hint:
Sa kho so, bhikkhave, bālo abyatto akusalo sūdo sakassa bhattu nimittaṁ na uggaṇhāti:
..
Today my master preferred the sour or bitter or pungent or sweet or hot or mild or salty sauce.
According to Sujato's idea what could it mean in early texts,
https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=617213#p617213 wrote:In meditation, a nimitta is any aspect of experience which, when focused on, tends to promote the growth of similar or related qualities.
..
The cittassa nimitta means more generally understanding the qualities that promote or degrade different qualities of mind. Thus as the cook’s behavior is modified by noticing the King’s preferences, a meditator learns how the mind responds to different stimuli and responds accordingly.
Sign of mind can be taken same way as patterns of mind. In your perspective both cases 'sign of mind' and 'patterns of mind' are same albeit to you are different but at the same time could be way different from what it means in the prescription.
auto
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Re: kalyāṇamitta and citta nimitta

Post by auto »

auto wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:19 pm
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/y/yath%C4%81bh%C5%ABta/ wrote: Concise Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera
yathābhūta:[adj.] conformity with the truth.
Ireland, "accordance with truth"
https://suttacentral.net/iti49/en/ireland wrote: Having seen what has come to be
As having come to be,
Passing beyond what has come to be,
They are released in accordance with truth
By exhausting the craving for being.

When a bhikkhu has fully understood
That which has come to be as such,
Free from craving to be this or that,
By the extinction of what has come to be
He comes no more to renewal of being.
Sujato, "accord with the truth"
https://suttacentral.net/iti49/en/sujato wrote: “Those who see what has come be to as having come to be,
“Ye bhūtaṁ bhūtato disvā,
transcending what has come to be,
bhūtassa ca atikkamaṁ;
are freed in accord with the truth,
Yathābhūte vimuccanti,
with the ending of craving for continued existence.
bhavataṇhā parikkhayā.

They completely understand what has come to be,
Sa ve bhūtapariñño so,
rid of craving for rebirth in this or that state,
vītataṇho bhavābhave;
with the disappearance of what has come to be,
Bhūtassa vibhavā bhikkhu,
a mendicant does not come back to future lives.”
nāgacchati punabbhavan”ti.
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