DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as 'mi

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Ceisiwr
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Re: DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 2:36 pm There would be absolutely no way of knowing that AFAIK. Certainly the Mahavibhasa text itself and things like that post-date the third council, but who knows when people started believing such things before writing said treatise?
Naturally there would have been monks and nun who believed such things prior to the Abhidharma Mahāvibhāṣa Śāstra, yes. The Kathāvatthu only gives us the argument between Ven. Moggaliputtatissa and an opponent who believes sound can be heard in whilst in the jhānā. The commentary is later and identifies the interlocutors as being the Pubbaseliya. I think we can reasonably assume the commentary is post the schism between the Theravāda and Sarvāstivāda, since it mentions the Sarvāstivādins as a separate tradition. It's noteworthy that they are never identified with said position in the text. Perhaps something the Abhidharmikas of the Sarvāstivāda picked up later, possibly from the Pubbaseliya? Regarding the time of the 3rd council all we know is that some monks and nuns were making such claims, and this contradicted the Theras and the tradition that would become what we know as Theravāda today. Interestingly the parallel to said sutta in the Ekottara Āgama, so it looks possible that the Pubbaseliya would have been working from the same text. If so, I struggle to see how it can be maintained and so I'm in agreement with Ven. Moggaliputtatissa here.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


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Coëmgenu
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Re: DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 2:49 pmThe Kathāvatthu only gives us the argument between Ven. Moggaliputtatissa and an opponent who believes sound can be heard in whilst in the jhānā. The commentary is later and identifies the interlocutors as being the Pubbaseliya. I think we can reasonably assume the commentary is post the schism between the Theravāda and Sarvāstivāda, since it mentions the Sarvāstivādins as a separate tradition. It's noteworthy that they are never identified with said position in the text. Perhaps something the Abhidharmikas of the Sarvāstivāda picked up later, possibly from the Pubbaseliya?
The Sarvāstivādins are thorough heresiologists more interested in rebuking the Mahāsāṃghikas than learning from them in my experience, but it is possible. Ven Sujato, for instance, thinks that the third council was before Buddhist schisms in general, and in order to support this, that is why IMO he has to say "the work [i.e. Kathāvatthu] as a whole cannot have been composed at that time, for it is the outcome of a long period of elaboration, and discusses many views of schools that did not emerge until long after the time of Aśoka" (Sects & Sectarianism 108-9). Because he believes in an unschismed Aśokan council, the diversity of positions in the Kathāvatthu must reflect much later Buddhism. I don't agree necessarily. I think it's a bit of an incredible claim.

It seems more likely the Theravādin redactions of the third council are Vibhajyavāda-specific, but I don't want to be making the opposite claim just for the sake of it.
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 2:49 pmInterestingly the parallel to said sutta in the Ekottara Āgama, so it looks possible that the Pubbaseliya would have been working from the same text. If so, I struggle to see how it can be maintained and so I'm in agreement with Ven. Moggaliputtatissa here.
Which one in particular?
The spotless mind,
the most highly pure, the tranquil,
all unspoiled phenomena supporting,
this name applying to the consciousness of the Tathāgata.

A bodhisattva, one of two vehicles, an ordinary person:
these are thrones which hold seeds subject to germination.
In acquiring the virtuous pure mind of a Buddha,
which is resolute suchness, the sūtra says:

The Tathāgata's spotless mind
is a pure place without outflows.
It is liberation from all bondage.
It is like a spherical mirror.
It is consciousness always in internal agreement.

(T1585.13a19 Vijñaptimātratāsiddhiśāstra)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 3:00 pm
The Sarvāstivādins are thorough heresiologists more interested in rebuking the Mahāsāṃghikas than learning from them in my experience,
Have you read much of their criticism of the Mahāsāṃghikas from the Abhidharma Mahāvibhāṣa Śāstra? Could reveal some things about their doctrine.
but it is possible. Ven Sujato, for instance, thinks that the second council was before Buddhist schisms in general, and in order to support this, that is why IMO he has to say "the work [i.e. Kathāvatthu] as a whole cannot have been composed at that time, for it is the outcome of a long period of elaboration, and discusses many views of schools that did not emerge until long after the time of Aśoka" (Sects & Sectarianism 108-9). Because he believes in an unschismed Aśokan council, the diversity of positions in the Kathāvatthu must reflect much later Buddhism. I don't agree necessarily. I think it's a bit of an incredible claim.
Yes I'm aware, although he does go on to say that the core of the Kathāvatthu could possibly go back to Ven. Moggaliputtatissa.
Which one in particular?
Hmm I had in mind the Kaṇṭakasutta but on SuttaCentral it only has an MA parallel. I remember reading it somewhere. That or I have my suttas confused. I'll have to see if I can find it again.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
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Coëmgenu
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Re: DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 3:11 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 3:00 pmThe Sarvāstivādins are thorough heresiologists more interested in rebuking the Mahāsāṃghikas than learning from them in my experience,
Have you read much of their criticism of the Mahāsāṃghikas from the Abhidharma Mahāvibhāṣa Śāstra? Could reveal some things about their doctrine
On page 106+ of Venerable Dhammajoti's Sarvastivada Abhidharma there are points dividing the Sarvāstivāda and Vibhajyavāda. On page 427 there is the only significant addressing of Mahāsāṃghika Buddhism in the text. We see them with a matrix of the unconditioned almost identical to the matrix from the supposedly-Dharmaguptaka Śāriputrābhidharmaśāstra.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Tue May 04, 2021 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The spotless mind,
the most highly pure, the tranquil,
all unspoiled phenomena supporting,
this name applying to the consciousness of the Tathāgata.

A bodhisattva, one of two vehicles, an ordinary person:
these are thrones which hold seeds subject to germination.
In acquiring the virtuous pure mind of a Buddha,
which is resolute suchness, the sūtra says:

The Tathāgata's spotless mind
is a pure place without outflows.
It is liberation from all bondage.
It is like a spherical mirror.
It is consciousness always in internal agreement.

(T1585.13a19 Vijñaptimātratāsiddhiśāstra)
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Ceisiwr
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Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 3:27 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 3:11 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 3:00 pmThe Sarvāstivādins are thorough heresiologists more interested in rebuking the Mahāsāṃghikas than learning from them in my experience,
Have you read much of their criticism of the Mahāsāṃghikas from the Abhidharma Mahāvibhāṣa Śāstra? Could reveal some things about their doctrine
On page 106+ of Venerable Dhammajoti's Sarvastivada Abhidharma there are points dividing the Sarvāstivāda and Theravāda. On page 427 there is the only significant addressing of Mahāsāṃghika Buddhism in the text. We see them with a matrix of the unconditioned almost identical to the matrix from the supposedly-Dharmaguptaka Śāriputrābhidharmaśāstra.
I've still only skimmed that work. Thanks.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 4373
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as

Post by Coëmgenu »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 3:27 pmOn page 427
Dyslexia. 472.
The spotless mind,
the most highly pure, the tranquil,
all unspoiled phenomena supporting,
this name applying to the consciousness of the Tathāgata.

A bodhisattva, one of two vehicles, an ordinary person:
these are thrones which hold seeds subject to germination.
In acquiring the virtuous pure mind of a Buddha,
which is resolute suchness, the sūtra says:

The Tathāgata's spotless mind
is a pure place without outflows.
It is liberation from all bondage.
It is like a spherical mirror.
It is consciousness always in internal agreement.

(T1585.13a19 Vijñaptimātratāsiddhiśāstra)
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