DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as 'mi

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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DooDoot
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Re: DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as

Post by DooDoot »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 12:40 pm So you shy away from the definition of fourth jhana? I guess you go with the first part but the similes seem to leave egg on your face.
Obviously unable to learn. The suttas in many places equate these terms with the jhanas.
BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 12:40 pmAnd the last time I looked... inserting words into a Sutta that aren't originally there is called tampering.
No. They are inserted for comprehension; for those unlearned (such as yourself) who are not aware "Brahma's Group" ("Kaya"; brahmakāyika) is associated with 1st jhana, "streaming radiance" is associated with the 2nd jhana, etc.

Merely the term "brahmakāyika" shows "kaya" does not mean "physical body".

I have mentioned how there is a new species on this forum engaged in strange forms of false speech. This forum is a discussion forum rather than a baseless unsubstantiated denial forum. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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BrokenBones
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Re: DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as

Post by BrokenBones »

DooDoot wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 12:45 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 12:40 pm So you shy away from the definition of fourth jhana? I guess you go with the first part but the similes seem to leave egg on your face.
Obviously unable to learn. The suttas in many places equate these terms with the jhanas.
BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 12:40 pmAnd the last time I looked... inserting words into a Sutta that aren't originally there is called tampering.
No. They are inserted for comprehension; for those unlearned (such as yourself) who are not aware "Brahma's Group" ("Kaya"; brahmakāyika) is associated with 1st jhana, "streaming radiance" is associated with the 2nd jhana, etc.

I have mentioned how there is a new species on this forum engaged in strange forms of false speech. Instead of offering alternative explanations, they just engage in worldly gutter talk. :smile:

Merely the term "brahmakāyika" shows "kaya" does not mean "physical body".
Nobody denies that kaya can't be used in other ways but when the Buddha is teaching about the 'body' then he means the body... why else the body similes?

Or are you going to come up with some new translation that implies the mind has toes and a top of the head?

And I think that is where I'll leave it. I've discovered that I can use this site and not have my eyes or common sense offended by your bombastic idiocy by the click of a single button.

You are 100% correct about worldly gutter talk and I have allowed myself to be drawn down into a world of fairy lights, zombie meditations and maniacal readings of the Suttas.

I'm sure you will beat a victory drum at my blocking you but it is a small price to pay to put my meditative mind on an even keel.

:namaste: :hello:

Edit... it needed two clicks 😆
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DooDoot
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Re: DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as

Post by DooDoot »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 1:06 pm Nobody denies that kaya can't be used in other ways
Sorry but the above appears to merely something posted without knowledge; merely copying what others teach one yet claiming to have learned it oneself by oneself. The bottom line is there is no awareness of the physical body in jhana. The jhana lite folks will always be chuckled at by the adults. Imagine attaining real jhana and some little children clinging to grandma Ayya Khema cry out the attainment is not real; like a groundling saying there is no a beautiful view from Mt Everest. This sort of behaviour characterizes cultural marxist western buddhism, where the mob of groundlings think they are the ones who know. Strange world. :smile:
Just as one upon the summit of a mountain beholds the groundlings, even so when the wise man casts away heedlessness by heedfulness and ascends the high tower of wisdom, this sorrowless sage beholds the sorrowing and foolish multitude.

Dhammapada
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as

Post by Tennok »

Hi BrokenBones,

What do you mean by "zombie mediatation"?

Are you implying that all the Bhikkhus who follow the hard jhana path, are just developing what, a stupor? Coma? Lack of consciousness? And for some misterious reasons, Sujato, Brahm, Brahmali et consortes, insist on teaching us that? Mindlessly spreading the zombie curse? :tongue:

Perhaps they are right, did it ever occur to you?

I will just remind here, that a crucial and fiercely debated part, about kaya being a heap, a body of factors rather than hump of our own flesh, together with lack of sensory input in jhana, was approved by a Third Theravada Council. By monks, who were much closer to the historical Buddha, than us. It's a dogma, not a heresy.
Last edited by Tennok on Mon May 03, 2021 1:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as

Post by Ceisiwr »

Tennok wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:54 am Hi BrokenBones,

What do you mean by "zombie mediatation"?

Are you implying that all the Bhikkhus who follow the hard jhana path, are just developing what, a stupor? Coma? Lack of consciousness? And for some misterious reasons, Sujato, Brahm, Brahmali et consortes, insist on teaching us that? Mindlessly spreading the zombie curse? :tongue: loke on

Perhaps they are right, did it ever occur to you?

I will just remind here, that a crucial and fiercely debated part, about kaya being a heap, a body of factors rather than hump of our own flesh, together lack of sensory input in jhana, was approved by a Third Theravada Council. By monks, who were much closer to the historical Buddha, than us. It's a dogma, not a heresy.
Indeed, from a Theravādin perspective the mostly lay orientated Jhāna-lite movement would be considered to be heretical. The Pubbaseliya, a sub-sect of the Mahāsāṃghika, would take the opposite view. It's noteworthy that they seem to have been the only early Buddhist sub-sect of a tradition to have taken that position.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as

Post by waryoffolly »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:16 am Indeed, from a Theravādin perspective the mostly lay orientated Jhāna-lite movement would be considered to be heretical. The Pubbaseliya, a sub-sect of the Mahāsāṃghika, would take the opposite view. It's noteworthy that they seem to have been the only early Buddhist sub-sect of a tradition to have taken that position.
Hi Ceisiwr,

This is interesting. Can you point me to a reference that discusses how the issue of jhana was debated at the third council?

(And to be fair, it’s not just lay oriented-there are many well known monastics who teach what you call “jhana-lite”.)
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Re: DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as

Post by BrokenBones »

Tennok wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:54 am Hi BrokenBones,

What do you mean by "zombie mediatation"?

Are you implying that all the Bhikkhus who follow the hard jhana path, are just developing what, a stupor? Coma? Lack of consciousness? And for some misterious reasons, Sujato, Brahm, Brahmali et consortes, insist on teaching us that? Mindlessly spreading the zombie curse? :tongue:

Perhaps they are right, did it ever occur to you?

I will just remind here, that a crucial and fiercely debated part, about kaya being a heap, a body of factors rather than hump of our own flesh, together with lack of sensory input in jhana, was approved by a Third Theravada Council. By monks, who were much closer to the historical Buddha, than us. It's a dogma, not a heresy.
I'm saying they are developing concentrations that may have rapture & bliss but are totally devoid of awareness... no will of your own... ambulance jhana if you like. The Buddha abandoned such concemtrations... developed the 8 fold path and the resulting jhanas and enlightenment.

Perhaps 'hard jhana' is not the actual way the Buddha taught and that they are wrong, not bad people or bad monks... just wrong about this aspect that has altered the teachings since the Visuddhimagga and probably before. At least the Vimuttimagga (500 years before the Vism.) dismissed the fairy lights nonsense out of hand but even though it concurs with what I'm saying, I don't look to it for authority; I take the Suttas... has any of this ever occurred to you?

An appeal to commentarial authority from a subset of the Buddha's original teachings is hardly convincing. Sidetracking the conversation is a common tactic with the jhana argument. You can take the 'body of mind' with its concomitant toes as making absolute sense to you but I'll just smile and shake my head.
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Re: DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as

Post by DooDoot »

BrokenBones wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:11 am I'm saying they are developing concentrations that may have rapture & bliss but are totally devoid of awareness...
Illogical & unsubstantiated. Your continued presence here reminds me of the below:
Then those monks, wishing to dissuade BrokenBones from that pernicious view, urged, admonished, questioned and exhorted him thus: "Do not say so, friend Arittha, do not say so! Do not misrepresent the Blessed One! It is not right to misrepresent him. Never would the Blessed One speak like that"... Yet, though the BrokenBones was thus urged, admonished, questioned and exhorted by those monks, he still clung tenaciously and obstinately to his pernicious view...
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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BrokenBones
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Re: DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:16 am
Tennok wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:54 am Hi BrokenBones,

What do you mean by "zombie mediatation"?

Are you implying that all the Bhikkhus who follow the hard jhana path, are just developing what, a stupor? Coma? Lack of consciousness? And for some misterious reasons, Sujato, Brahm, Brahmali et consortes, insist on teaching us that? Mindlessly spreading the zombie curse? :tongue: loke on

Perhaps they are right, did it ever occur to you?

I will just remind here, that a crucial and fiercely debated part, about kaya being a heap, a body of factors rather than hump of our own flesh, together lack of sensory input in jhana, was approved by a Third Theravada Council. By monks, who were much closer to the historical Buddha, than us. It's a dogma, not a heresy.
Indeed, from a Theravādin perspective the mostly lay orientated Jhāna-lite movement would be considered to be heretical. The Pubbaseliya, a sub-sect of the Mahāsāṃghika, would take the opposite view. It's noteworthy that they seem to have been the only early Buddhist sub-sect of a tradition to have taken that position.
If the Pubbaseliya sect thought that then good on them.

I would say that today; within the Theravadin there are a myriad of 'sub-sects' but the days of schisms and different sects forming are long gone (officially). But if one looks closely then one would see totally disparate takes on the Suttas and Abidhamma, all under the umbrella of Theravada. Why this is so is not something I wish to speculate on, but to call one a 'heretic' is just stupid name calling.

A heretic by the standards of later councils maybe; but you would have to include many hundreds/thousands of monks and laypeople with the silly slur.

If we take the first council as being the most definitive then every council and school that arose afterwards is heretical because they have introduced different teachings and different meanings to the Suttas... bang goes the Abhidhamma... bang goes the tiresome & nonsensical Commentaries (for the most part)... bang goes the Vism... sounds good :smile:

Different schools arose, each with their own agenda. The Theravada school survived... I'm glad... but I'm not willing to take on board some of their agenda driven ideas just because it's the oldest surviving school.

The commentaries that stayed to the truth and meaning of the Suttas are beneficial, as are modern monastics who do the same. I wouldn't call Ajahn Brahm et al heretics solely on this issue and I'm surprised you imply that Sutta Jhana monastics are.

I believe they are mistaken... nothing more. And if you believe I'm mistaken then just say so without needless name calling.
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Re: DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as

Post by pitithefool »

BrokenBones wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:11 am
Perhaps 'hard jhana' is not the actual way the Buddha taught and that they are wrong, not bad people or bad monks... just wrong about this aspect that has altered the teachings since the Visuddhimagga and probably before. At least the Vimuttimagga (500 years before the Vism.) dismissed the fairy lights nonsense out of hand but even though it concurs with what I'm saying, I don't look to it for authority; I take the Suttas... has any of this ever occurred to you?

An appeal to commentarial authority from a subset of the Buddha's original teachings is hardly convincing. Sidetracking the conversation is a common tactic with the jhana argument. You can take the 'body of mind' with its concomitant toes as making absolute sense to you but I'll just smile and shake my head.
I'm of the opinion that "Hard Jhana" is a bit of a misnomer. The vism. and vimk. don't appear to describe what people call "hard jhana" either. The teachers of "hard jhana" or not wrong though and neither are the teachers of "jhana lite". The Vism. does appear to corroborate the views of both "camps" in this debate.

What I'm more interested in here is the Non-percipient devas.

It's not conclusive from the evidence that the fourth jhana is without perception. Rather, it appears to the contrary, as evidenced by the simile of the cloth wrap. Awareness is enveloping "the body" (whatever you take that to mean) rather than being in a state of non-perception.

Rather, it would appear that a state of non-perception is one of the modes of being accessible via the fourth jhana but is placed lower than the formless attainments in terms of value. SN 22:47
"The five faculties, monks, continue as they were. And with regard to them the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones abandons ignorance and gives rise to clear knowing. Owing to the fading of ignorance and the arising of clear knowing, (the thoughts) — 'I am,' 'I am this,' 'I shall be,' 'I shall not be,' 'I shall be possessed of form,' 'I shall be formless,' 'I shall be percipient (conscious),' 'I shall be non-percipient,' and 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' — do not occur to him."
Although a non-percipient being willed by means of self is indeed rather refined, it is not the goal and resides on the side of annihilationism. However, it does NOT mean that the fourth jhana is without perception. If that were true, then then there would be no perceptions of form would be surmounted to gain singularity of perception in the formless.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 4:02 am
I believe they are mistaken... nothing more. And if you believe I'm mistaken then just say so without needless name calling.
Heretic simply means non-orthodox belief. I have some non-orthodox positions myself, viewed from the perspective of Theravāda. Of course being a heretic in terms of the suttas, well, that is something else.
If the Pubbaseliya sect thought that then good on them.
It was indeed their position, as seen in the screen shot below from the Kathāvatthu. The counter argument is provided by that great defender of Theravādin orthodoxy, Ven. Moggaliputtatissa (he gets discussed in Sarvāstivādin and Mahāsāṃghika texts too).
Attachments
Sound 2.jpg
Sound 1.jpg
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:11 am
I'm saying they are developing concentrations that may have rapture & bliss but are totally devoid of awareness... no will of your own... ambulance jhana if you like. The Buddha abandoned such concemtrations... developed the 8 fold path and the resulting jhanas and enlightenment.
You seem to be confusing the Jhānā with the formless.
At least the Vimuttimagga (500 years before the Vism.) dismissed the fairy lights nonsense out of hand but even though it concurs with what I'm saying, I don't look to it for authority; I take the Suttas... has any of this ever occurred to you?
Whilst the nimitta in the Vimuttimagga's section on mindfulness of breathing are tactile, it does recognise visual nimitta in other meditations.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
auto
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Re: DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as

Post by auto »

so everyone who can picture what is to be without sound has the taste of what first jhana looks like?

upside down to,
https://suttacentral.net/an1.616-627/en/sujato wrote: “Mendicants, those who have lost mindfulness of the body have lost the deathless.
“Amataṁ tesaṁ, bhikkhave, parihīnaṁ yesaṁ kāyagatāsati parihīnā.
Those who haven’t lost mindfulness of the body haven’t lost the deathless.”
Amataṁ tesaṁ, bhikkhave, aparihīnaṁ yesaṁ kāyagatāsati aparihīnā”ti.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as

Post by Ceisiwr »

auto wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:05 pm so everyone who can picture what is to be without sound has the taste of what first jhana looks like?

upside down to,
https://suttacentral.net/an1.616-627/en/sujato wrote: “Mendicants, those who have lost mindfulness of the body have lost the deathless.
“Amataṁ tesaṁ, bhikkhave, parihīnaṁ yesaṁ kāyagatāsati parihīnā.
Those who haven’t lost mindfulness of the body haven’t lost the deathless.”
Amataṁ tesaṁ, bhikkhave, aparihīnaṁ yesaṁ kāyagatāsati aparihīnā”ti.
Sadly when uploading pictures I don't seem able to choose in which order they will be displayed.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
auto
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:08 pm Sadly when uploading pictures I don't seem able to choose in which order they will be displayed.
what are you referring to?
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