MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

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frank k
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MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by frank k »

MN 125 and MA 198 four jhanas simile and war elephant: how on earth does that resemble Ajahn Brahm and Vism. redefinition of "jhana"?

http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... imile.html
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confusedlayman
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by confusedlayman »

frank k wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:03 pm MN 125 and MA 198 four jhanas simile and war elephant: how on earth does that resemble Ajahn Brahm and Vism. redefinition of "jhana"?

http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... imile.html
what's the use of arguing about what jhana is or what is not jhana?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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frank k
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by frank k »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:32 pm
frank k wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:03 pm MN 125 and MA 198 four jhanas simile and war elephant: how on earth does that resemble Ajahn Brahm and Vism. redefinition of "jhana"?

http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... imile.html
what's the use of arguing about what jhana is or what is not jhana?

What's the use of trying to explain to people that jhana is actually very attainable and easy to do, compared to the redefined vism. and ajahn brahm jhana that only one in a million people can do?

You don't think that's useful? Or you've completely given up on the human race?
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www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
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confusedlayman
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by confusedlayman »

frank k wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 3:35 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:32 pm
frank k wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:03 pm MN 125 and MA 198 four jhanas simile and war elephant: how on earth does that resemble Ajahn Brahm and Vism. redefinition of "jhana"?

http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... imile.html
what's the use of arguing about what jhana is or what is not jhana?

What's the use of trying to explain to people that jhana is actually very attainable and easy to do, compared to the redefined vism. and ajahn brahm jhana that only one in a million people can do?

You don't think that's useful? Or you've completely given up on the human race?
If people follow precepts its easy ... no need to convince others with wrong ideas ...
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
BrokenBones
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by BrokenBones »

confusedlayman wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 8:53 pm
frank k wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 3:35 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:32 pm

what's the use of arguing about what jhana is or what is not jhana?

What's the use of trying to explain to people that jhana is actually very attainable and easy to do, compared to the redefined vism. and ajahn brahm jhana that only one in a million people can do?

You don't think that's useful? Or you've completely given up on the human race?
If people follow precepts its easy ... no need to convince others with wrong ideas ...
Of course there is no need to convince others with wrong ideas... but the effort to maintain the Dhamma is always important. I may not be quite as strident as frank but promoting the suttas over new age fads (visuddhimagga) included) is vital.

I don't think convincing people who are already entrenched in ambulance jhanas is actually the point.
pegembara
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by pegembara »

Jhana is a loaded term. Soft or hard, sutta or Vism, vipassana jhanas etc.

Ultimately the only thing that truly matters is seeing/knowing this -
At Savatthi. "Monks, eye-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... mind-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Then the venerable Pukkusāti, having delighted and rejoiced in the Blessed One’s words, rose from his seat, and after paying homage to the Blessed One, keeping him on his right, he departed in order to search for a bowl and robes. Then, while the venerable Pukkusāti was searching for a bowl and robes, a stray cow killed him.

“Bhikkhus, the clansman Pukkusāti was wise. He practised in accordance with the Dhamma and did not trouble me in the interpretation of the Dhamma. With the destruction of the five lower fetters, the clansman Pukkusāti has reappeared spontaneously in the Pure Abodes and will attain final Nibbāna there without ever returning from that world.”

https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/bodhi
Was Pukkusāti in jhana? What type of jhana was he in?
Was he in what we would regard as "meditation"?
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by Srilankaputra »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:32 pm what's the use of arguing about what jhana is or what is not jhana?
Good question. How can anyone build the necessary inner strength, when it's repeatedly drained away with unrestrained conduct? :shrug:

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
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confusedlayman
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by confusedlayman »

Srilankaputra wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:33 am
confusedlayman wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:32 pm what's the use of arguing about what jhana is or what is not jhana?
Good question. How can anyone build the necessary inner strength, when it's repeatedly drained away with unrestrained conduct? :shrug:
to practice the dhamma instead of arguing
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
skandha
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by skandha »

I really appreciate the OP bringing up this sutta. It is a great imagery, that of the a well trained elephant that "doesn’t budge its fore-feet or hind-feet, its fore-quarters or hind-quarters, its head, ears, tusks, tail, or trunk" in spite of the assaults of sensual stimuli, well guarded by sense restraint just like the "lancers surround it on all sides".
A true master of knowledge has passed beyond all that is known and become dispassionate towards all vedanās.
- Sn 529
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by dharmacorps »

frank k wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 3:35 pm

What's the use of trying to explain to people that jhana is actually very attainable and easy to do, compared to the redefined vism. and ajahn brahm jhana that only one in a million people can do?

You don't think that's useful? Or you've completely given up on the human race?
Not seeing the point in constantly arguing about jhanas does not mean one has given up on the human race. Your approach probably is turning more people off from listening than helping at this point.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by Ceisiwr »

frank k wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 3:35 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:32 pm
frank k wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:03 pm MN 125 and MA 198 four jhanas simile and war elephant: how on earth does that resemble Ajahn Brahm and Vism. redefinition of "jhana"?

http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... imile.html
what's the use of arguing about what jhana is or what is not jhana?

What's the use of trying to explain to people that jhana is actually very attainable and easy to do, compared to the redefined vism. and ajahn brahm jhana that only one in a million people can do?

You don't think that's useful? Or you've completely given up on the human race?
I can very much understand why someone would want to make Jhāna easier. Dare I say, lighter. I can't much understand why a tradition would make it harder. If there is a corruption to be had, it would seem to be more likely to be the former. After all, the easiest way to experience Jhāna is simply to redefine it ;)
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mikenz66
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by mikenz66 »

frank k wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 3:35 pm What's the use of trying to explain to people that jhana is actually very attainable and easy to do, compared to the redefined vism. and ajahn brahm jhana that only one in a million people can do?

You don't think that's useful? Or you've completely given up on the human race?
What difference does it actually make? If what I experience is actually jhāna, and I think that it's not actually jhāna, does it make any difference?

Noone seems to disagree that insight arises in a state that is less-absorbed than a hard-jhāna state (in the case of hard-jhāna it is necessary to exit from the hard-jhāna to develop insight - as in the awakening story of the Buddha in MN36). So does it matter whether we think we are gaining insight inside lite-jhāna or before or after hard-jhāna (perhaps in "vipassana-jhāna" to use a modern term) really matter?

I think your concern is that people will get depressed and give up if they think they cannot attain jhāna. That may be for some, but it has never occurred to me. I just practice as best I can.

If we set up the right conditions, insight will occur...

:meditate:
Mike
skandha
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by skandha »

mikenz66 wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 9:31 pm
frank k wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 3:35 pm What's the use of trying to explain to people that jhana is actually very attainable and easy to do, compared to the redefined vism. and ajahn brahm jhana that only one in a million people can do?

You don't think that's useful? Or you've completely given up on the human race?
What difference does it actually make? If what I experience is actually jhāna, and I think that it's not actually jhāna, does it make any difference?

Noone seems to disagree that insight arises in a state that is less-absorbed than a hard-jhāna state (in the case of hard-jhāna it is necessary to exit from the hard-jhāna to develop insight - as in the awakening story of the Buddha in MN36). So does it matter whether we think we are gaining insight inside lite-jhāna or before or after hard-jhāna (perhaps in "vipassana-jhāna" to use a modern term) really matter?

I think your concern is that people will get depressed and give up if they think they cannot attain jhāna. That may be for some, but it has never occurred to me. I just practice as best I can.

If we set up the right conditions, insight will occur...

:meditate:
Mike
Whether a jhana is hard or lite it does not matter, as long as one has the skill to be unmoved in the face of the hindrances or no hindrances, just like the imagery of the war elephant in the Sutta.
A true master of knowledge has passed beyond all that is known and become dispassionate towards all vedanās.
- Sn 529
BrokenBones
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by BrokenBones »

Right Samadhi is the pinnacle of the path... it matters. Two options...

One is in a state of unawareness/lack of will/in a grip of intense concentration so strong that people could kick you and you not know it... what's happened?
All the path has been trod only to culminate in a blanking of the senses and a total loss of mindfulness (especially the body)? Now you've trod the path... you have to walk backwards to a point where you can actually start being aware again?

Or...

The path has been trod... the senses have been calmed/mindfulness reaches its peak/the seven factors are in balance and insight can/may occur?

To think that the eighth factor can be messed around with and it doesn't really matter as long as it's 'concentration' is similar to the mental gymnastics that go on around sila re drinking/sex/lying/killing... you might get a type of sila but is it right sila?
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by mikenz66 »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 10:37 pm Right Samadhi is the pinnacle of the path... it matters.
Sure. But unless one has attained the pinnacle it might be counterproductive to think that one knows what that pinnacle actually is.

Besides, my main point is that whether one thinks that lite-jhana is all there is, and that is where insight arises, or whether one sees that lite-jhana as what happens before or after hard-jhana, the actual insight occurs in a lite-jhana/vipassana-jhana/non-jhana state.

What the hard-jhana advocates would say is that having experienced the amount of letting go necessary to get to that point is essential to full awakening. But not essential for lower levels.


:heart:
Mike
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