MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
waryoffolly
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by waryoffolly »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:49 pm
waryoffolly wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:28 pmThere are many english-speaking monastics who teach embodied jhana/vipassana in jhana or at the very least effectively teach that way without labelling it as such. But probably you’re correct on a global scale that Vidsuddhimagga style is more mainstream.
Possibly. I've also heard that all sorts of wild things go down on terms of esoteric doctrine and practice in Thailand once you leave the cities and enter the countryside, and I'm sure the country-city divide is more complex than simply orthodox-heterodox tendencies for each side. Sri Lanka, for instance, also has a tendency to produce Buddhism-derived New Religious Movements and new Buddhist sects that teach "uncovered" esoteric meanings supposedly found in the Pali texts.

An interesting comparison might be belief in reincarnation amongst American Catholics. A 2018 Pew survey found that 36% of American Catholics believe in reincarnation. Reincarnation is not a "mainstream" Catholic belief, but not because only 36% believe it. 36% is a decently-sized minority. That being said, reincarnation is not a part of mainstream Catholicism. For instance, it would likely be harder to find this 36% statistic corresponding to those amongst the clergy, etc., of Catholicism, because reincarnation is a "spiritual" or "folk" belief of these Catholics unrelated to their catechesis. This might not be a perfect comparison either. For instance, it seems to me that some degree of senses or "embodiment" in jhana is a lot less of an eccentric stance to take in Theravada Buddhism than a Catholic deciding that souls reincarnate in Catholicism.
Wow, that’s fascinating about Catholics. Thanks for sharing. There’s also the fact that meditation in the theravada has a complicated history of “rising and falling” in different regions. So our mainstream today isn’t necessarily the same as the mainstream in the past.
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by auto »

frank k wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:48 pm ..
Reading the link,
He interprets nimitta to be the mind, a'la mind manifesting. Prolly his teachers or lineage, not his words.

2nd stage
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/wrong/brahm/index.html wrote:Another useful method of developing silent awareness is to recognize the space between thoughts
..
The second stage of this meditation, then, is `silent awareness of the present moment’.
3rd stage
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/wrong/brahm/index.html wrote:If you have developed silent awareness of the present moment carefully for long periods of time, then you will find it quite easy to turn that awareness on to the breath and follow that breath from moment to moment without interruption.
..
When you focus on the breath, you focus on the experience of the breath happening now.
..
You will find that progress happens effortlessly at this stage of the meditation.
4th stage, breath is let go
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/wrong/brahm/index.html wrote:The fourth stage is what I call the `springboard’ of meditation, because from here one can dive into the blissful states. When you simply maintain this unity of consciousness, by not interfering, the breath will begin to disappear.
5th stage about mind recognizing this nimitta
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/wrong/brahm/index.html wrote:The fifth stage is called full sustained attention on the beautiful breath.
..
The mind recognizes this beautiful breath and delights in it.
..
The `doer’ has to disappear from this stage of the meditation on, with just the `knower’ passively observing.
..
Now the breath will disappear, not when `you’ want it to, but when there is enough calm, leaving only `the beautiful’.
This pure mental object is called a nimitta. `Nimitta’ means `a sign’, here a mental sign.
6th
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/wrong/brahm/index.html wrote:The sixth stage, then, is called experiencing the beautiful nimitta. It is achieved when one lets go of the body, thought, and the five senses (including the awareness of the breath) so completely that only the beautiful nimitta remains.
I think he is describing his teachers words with his own insight, the affirmation of general 'senses off' as a feature to recognize the reality of experience from imaginary, sounds a little bit off with the descriptions of stages. Which as we can see does harm some critics who take these things out of context and make it so loud.
Some can read these stages and find the same things elsewhere, different tradition or cult. I think it is real thing, must be pretty keen to recognize at least the first stages, they are common.
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mikenz66
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by mikenz66 »

waryoffolly wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:01 pm Wow, that’s fascinating about Catholics. Thanks for sharing. There’s also the fact that meditation in the theravada has a complicated history of “rising and falling” in different regions. So our mainstream today isn’t necessarily the same as the mainstream in the past.
And, as we have seen in some of the conversation, it depends how we define the "mainstream". For most of us, the teachings of westerners are much more accessible than of most Asian teachers, so our idea of "mainstream" can be rather limited. Particular Asian teachers are well known to us because they happened to attract western students.

:heart:
Mike
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by auto »

frank k wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:48 pm ..
inability to do something, but the context has to be right,
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/wrong/index.html#flink-35 wrote:(inability to "do something" in jhana)
(p.169) role of "will", ability to "do something" in jhana
AB: ...That simile works like this:
The first jhana is the first time when the body and the five senses have disappeared. So when one gets into the first jhana, that is the first occasion when one has completely let go of the body and the five senses, just like the first time that tadpole, transformed into a frog, has gone out of the lake. Only when you have leaped out from the world of the five senses and body are you able to know what a body is and what the five senses are. You cannot know what these five senses truly are when you are swimming around in them. You cannot know what a body is when it is always there for you.
But much more profoundly, in the second jhana your will has disappeared. It is not just that you do not want to do anything. You cannot do anything. The potential to involve yourself with affairs has been completely removed. It is like you have leaped out from another lake that had an immersed in as long as you can remember, the lake called "will".
read this from the above quote,
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/wrong/index.html#flink-35 wrote: Only when you have leaped out from the world of the five senses and body are you able to know what a body is and what the five senses are. You cannot know what these five senses truly are when you are swimming around in them.
..
The potential to involve yourself with affairs has been completely removed.
This doesn't suggest that the senses are off. It more like suggest you are not able to do deeds what will cause rebirth in lower worlds.


he says quite clear, there is this calling experience as 'nothing to do with the body' what you might think is body.
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/wrong/index.html#flink-35 wrote:
..We have a physical body, but also have a body of evidence, a body of experience, and these are all immaterial "bodies."
..
It is quite clear that in jhānas you cannot feel anything to do with the body.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by Ceisiwr »

waryoffolly wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:51 pm [It’s simply not the dominant theravada exegesis (that I’ve seen) until the Vidsuddhimagga, and even in the Vidsuddhimagga there is some evidence of a less absorbed model. The theravada commentaries are not a single unified whole, but represent multiple voices. There are multiple commentarial works/passages (and even works in the abhidhamma) that clearly state bodily experience in jhana, and that vipassana is done from jhana. Currently my hypothesis is that the earlier the strata of commentary, the more likely vipassana is done inside jhana. There are also many, many modern theravada teachers who don’t teach absorbed jhana, so you also shouldn’t say:
If this is referring to the texts and passages we discussed before, this was due to you not understanding what was being said (or missing bits of what was being said).
Currently my hypothesis is that the earlier the strata of commentary, the more likely vipassana is done inside jhana.
On an absorbed model it is impossible to have insight whilst in Jhana. On the Jhana-lite model it’s impossible past the 1st Jhana. On a sutta basis it’s impossible in any Jhana. Insight requires normal discursive thought, as per the suttas.
This debate is ultimately about the willingness to be wrong, and to conduct a full survey of the source texts. If you do so, you will likely be surprised what you find in these earlier commentarial texts, I certainly have been! The sad truth is that people often read/are taught about a commentary of a commentary (sometimes of a commentary again!) and then ignore or rationalize clearcut statements in the suttas, or the earliest commentarial strata to fit into late commentarial boxes. Many people who write on jhana are doing so, sadly. I wish this wasn’t the case, and I wish I could just agree with everyone, but it would require me to twist my reason into ridiculous loops, and rationalizations. Because of these unfortunate tendencies you must look for yourself to see what is actually being said
The spurious reasoning lies with you and the other proponents of Jhana-lite I’m afraid. The Vimuttimagga teaches that Jhana is without the senses, whilst the commentarial texts you think you have discovered are simply saying the same as what’s in the Visuddhimagga. You haven’t discovered anything revolutionary.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
waryoffolly
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by waryoffolly »

Hi Ceisiwr,

I don’t think anymore back and forth on these issues between you and I will be helpful for anyone.

Like I’ve said before I think the Visuddhimagga style post-jhana (after exiting jhana) samadhi is likely capable of acting as the support to break fetters.

So to end the discussions about jhana between us: May you obtain your version of jhana! May you maintain access samadhi continuously! May you break fetters!

Best Wishes,
waryoffolly

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:27 pm
waryoffolly wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:51 pm [It’s simply not the dominant theravada exegesis (that I’ve seen) until the Vidsuddhimagga, and even in the Vidsuddhimagga there is some evidence of a less absorbed model. The theravada commentaries are not a single unified whole, but represent multiple voices. There are multiple commentarial works/passages (and even works in the abhidhamma) that clearly state bodily experience in jhana, and that vipassana is done from jhana. Currently my hypothesis is that the earlier the strata of commentary, the more likely vipassana is done inside jhana. There are also many, many modern theravada teachers who don’t teach absorbed jhana, so you also shouldn’t say:
If this is referring to the texts and passages we discussed before, this was due to you not understanding what was being said (or missing bits of what was being said).
Currently my hypothesis is that the earlier the strata of commentary, the more likely vipassana is done inside jhana.
On an absorbed model it is impossible to have insight whilst in Jhana. On the Jhana-lite model it’s impossible past the 1st Jhana. On a sutta basis it’s impossible in any Jhana. Insight requires normal discursive thought, as per the suttas.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by Ceisiwr »

waryoffolly wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:37 pm Hi Ceisiwr,

I don’t think anymore back and forth on these issues between you and I will be helpful for anyone.
It’s helpful for others who are possibly new to Buddhism to read corrections to your false claims.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by Ratnakar »

frank k wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:03 pm MN 125 and MA 198 four jhanas simile and war elephant: how on earth does that resemble Ajahn Brahm and Vism. redefinition of "jhana"?

http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... imile.html
Hey Frank how are you ?

I just want to state here that you are doing useless work here friend, in visuddhimagga even momentary-concentration is enough to attain nibbana so jhana and even access are not necessary and when you are talking about visuddhimagga jhana then you are just wasting your time friend it's much better if you discuss how to stabilize visuddhimagga-momentary- concentration because that's what matters because that's what makes you enlightened

Talking about visuddhimagga jhana is just the same as talking about how to get water in mars where in fact you can get water inside your neighbor's house, it's unnecessary, it's unproductive, it won't help you and others towards the goal either
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by auto »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:04 pm Frank likely already knows this, and it's actually been repeated a few times on the forum, but I think this could do with repeating for newer forum members. The "technical" explanation for why there would be "no awareness in jhāna save for awareness of jhana" is that there is "no sati in jhāna." You are aware of the jhāna, but absolutely nothing else (i.e. no reflexive self-awareness to reflect that "I am in jhana" until after the fact, despite having experienced the jhāna). There is simply the experience of the jhāna, which is disembodied and characterized by "only one citta," the citta of the jhāna and/or the nimitta, whichever language we want to use.
Mindfulness is what entails the development of samadhi(not jhana). At some point nimitta is distinguished, what denotes nearness of concentration(jhana) on the object what is on the far shore.
This imperfect sankhara+nimitta what has the characteristics or shape of an internal sense field(near shore) will dissolve into nimitta without faults - pure nimitta without marks of existence, means it will become undistinguished from the external sense field like nothing ever happened.

Then these formations can be distinguished again by putting mindfulness and effort in use, concentration(jhana) what has samadhi as an awakening factor.
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by waryoffolly »

mikenz66 wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:29 pm And, as we have seen in some of the conversation, it depends how we define the "mainstream". For most of us, the teachings of westerners are much more accessible than of most Asian teachers, so our idea of "mainstream" can be rather limited. Particular Asian teachers are well known to us because they happened to attract western students.

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Mike
Yes, and an interesting question is “Is there a selection bias present in the set of teachers Westerners are attracted to?” I’d guess yes (and it looks like you may agree.)
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by mikenz66 »

waryoffolly wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:54 pm
mikenz66 wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:29 pm And, as we have seen in some of the conversation, it depends how we define the "mainstream". For most of us, the teachings of westerners are much more accessible than of most Asian teachers, so our idea of "mainstream" can be rather limited. Particular Asian teachers are well known to us because they happened to attract western students.

:heart:
Mike
Yes, and an interesting question is “Is there a selection bias present in the set of teachers Westerners are attracted to?” I’d guess yes (and it looks like you may agree.)
Sure, but part of the "selection bias" is quite random - depending on which teachers had English-speaking students, or, for some of us, which communities set up monasteries locally.

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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by Dhammanando »

Ratnakar wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:50 pm Hey Frank how are you ?

I just want to state here that you are doing useless work here friend, in visuddhimagga even momentary-concentration is enough to attain nibbana so jhana and even access are not necessary
This thread has to do with the controversy about what jhāna is. The controversy about whether jhānic development is necessary is off topic.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by Ratnakar »

Dhammanando wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:53 am
Ratnakar wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:50 pm Hey Frank how are you ?

I just want to state here that you are doing useless work here friend, in visuddhimagga even momentary-concentration is enough to attain nibbana so jhana and even access are not necessary
This thread has to do with the controversy about what jhāna is. The controversy about whether jhānic development is necessary is off topic.
confusedlayman wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:32 pm
frank k wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:03 pm MN 125 and MA 198 four jhanas simile and war elephant: how on earth does that resemble Ajahn Brahm and Vism. redefinition of "jhana"?

http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... imile.html
what's the use of arguing about what jhana is or what is not jhana?
my point is there's no use in arguing about this topic, it's pointless, it's useless so why should it be created in the first place ?
frank k wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 3:35 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:32 pm
frank k wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:03 pm MN 125 and MA 198 four jhanas simile and war elephant: how on earth does that resemble Ajahn Brahm and Vism. redefinition of "jhana"?

http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... imile.html
what's the use of arguing about what jhana is or what is not jhana?

What's the use of trying to explain to people that jhana is actually very attainable and easy to do, compared to the redefined vism. and ajahn brahm jhana that only one in a million people can do?

You don't think that's useful? Or you've completely given up on the human race?
now frank actually argued that jhana is important that without it will be the same as giving up on human race and he is not correct here especially if he quoted visuddhimagga definition of jhana he should quote visuddhimagga definition of right concentration too but he didn't because visuddhimagga definition of right concentration don't include just jhana but momentary concentration too

So his main argument that without jhana is like giving up the human race is baseless it's like accepting visuddhimagga definition of jhana but refusing visuddhimagga definition of right concentration you can't just accept visuddhimagga partially you must accept it fully before comparing it to suttas
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by Dhammanando »

Ratnakar wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:10 am my point is there's no use in arguing about this topic, it's pointless, it's useless so why should it be created in the first place ?
Your point is both off-topic and a contravention of article 2.e. in the Terms of Service which prohibits:
Disruptive meta-discussion (i.e. discussion about discussion, including in-topic complaints about the existence of discussions that don't suit your preferences).

If Frank's thread doesn't interest you, then stay out of it. Or, if you wish to argue for the uselessness of this kind of discussion, then start a thread of your own.

.


:focus:
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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