MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

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waryoffolly
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by waryoffolly »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 5:19 pm I cautiously contest the assertions in the post about the "Northern" tradition, but haven't read the paper yet.
Let me know what you think after you take a look! My understanding was completely from that PhD thesis-of course I could have misunderstood it.
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frank k
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by frank k »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 4:11 pm I think that instead of "light" and "hard," it should be "disembodied" versus "embodied" jhana. When jhana is interpreted in such a way that there is only manovinnana, then the jhana is "disembodied." If you have eye, ear, body, and mind, then the jhana is "embodied."
That's a good proposal.
There's another huge difference though. Not only is VRJ (vism. redefinition of jhana) and jabrama-jhana (ajahn brahm's redefinition) going from embodied to dis-embodied, they resolve to enter a frozen stupor where no vipassana is possible.

Another way to politely discuss jhana in mixed company (Theravada includes Abhdhamma and Vism. followers and followers with straightforward reading of suttas who reject LBT doctrine that contradict sutta).

Whenever the term 'jhana' in the four jhanas context is used, VRJ followers should understand the suttas is talking about post appana samadhi upacara samadhi where the jhana is embodied, and vipassana is possible and expected.

I was looking at Abhidhamma vibhanga and Vism. gloss of 'sampajano' in the 4 jhanas the other day, and it's the same as 'sampajano' in the satipatthana vibhanga. Look it up sometime. Right view (samma ditthi) and non-delusion is part of its definition. And right view is defined as clearly knowing through direct experience the rise and fall of 5 aggregates and the 4 noble truths. You can't do that from a frozen stupor.

This should be blowing the minds of Vism. followers. Why would sati, sampajano, and upekkha be INCLUDED WITHIN 3rd and 4th jhana standard formulas if the term 'jhana' is supposed to be a dis-embodied frozen stupor?

If the Buddha really had intended the four jhanas to be "appana samadhi" that is disembodied and frozen in a stupor where vipassana was not possible, he had the vocabulary and means to express that concisely and clearly.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by Ceisiwr »

frank k wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:59 pm [(Theravada includes Abhdhamma and Vism. followers and followers with straightforward reading of suttas who reject LBT doctrine that contradict sutta).
Isn’t what makes a Theravādin or a Sarvāstivādin their Abhidhamma? In other words, adherence to the Abhidhamma (and commentaries) is what makes one a true Theravādin?
This should be blowing the minds of Vism. followers. Why would sati, sampajano, and upekkha be INCLUDED WITHIN 3rd and 4th jhana standard formulas if the term 'jhana' is supposed to be a dis-embodied frozen stupor?
It doesn’t blow my mind at all.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by auto »

frank k wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:59 pm I was looking at Abhidhamma vibhanga and Vism. gloss of 'sampajano' in the 4 jhanas the other day, and it's the same as 'sampajano' in the satipatthana vibhanga. Look it up sometime. Right view (samma ditthi) and non-delusion is part of its definition. And right view is defined as clearly knowing through direct experience the rise and fall of 5 aggregates and the 4 noble truths. You can't do that from a frozen stupor.

This should be blowing the minds of Vism. followers. Why would sati, sampajano, and upekkha be INCLUDED WITHIN 3rd and 4th jhana standard formulas if the term 'jhana' is supposed to be a dis-embodied frozen stupor?

If the Buddha really had intended the four jhanas to be "appana samadhi" that is disembodied and frozen in a stupor where vipassana was not possible, he had the vocabulary and means to express that concisely and clearly.
Read this, don't get it wrong, mindlessness do have mindfulness, albeit inert to false voidness.
Alchemy and Immortality wrote:Count from one to ten and then from ten to hundred breaths with the heart (mind) following the counting to prevent it from wandering outside.
When the heart and breathing is in unison, this is called 'locking up the monkey heart' and 'tying up the running horse of intellect'.
The Tan Chin says:
Let all thought come and go; awareness
Of them without clinging is true training.
All attachments are wrong whereas
Inertness to false voidness leads.

Mindfulness should give way to mindlessness so that the heart(the seat of nature) is empty(of all stirrings), becomes incorporeal and spiritual
and beyond birth and death.
If you want to get rid of wrong thoughts you should hold on to correct awareness and they will cease of themselves so that your heart will be like
the bright moon in space, immaculate and containing no foreign matter. As the heart gets used to this condition it will be free from all illusions culminating in the death of the heart and resurrection of the spirit. For if spirit is not settled the light of(essential) nature does not manifest and if intellect is not frozen passions cannot be cut off. In this state of serenity when the inmost vibrates of itself you should immediately take advantage of its vibration to gather the microcosmic alchemical agent. This is called 'leading the fire'(to gather the agent).
vs
vism wrote:For
counting is simply a device for setting mindfulness on the in-breaths and outbreaths
as object by cutting off the external dissipation of applied thoughts.
you still notice, follow in and out breaths but not by counting, but connection(which is without clinging).
vism wrote:196. 2. Having given attention to it in this way by counting, he should now do
so by connection. Connection is the uninterrupted following of the in-breaths and
out-breaths with mindfulness after counting has been given up. And that is not
by following after the beginning, the middle and the end.54
..
3–4. So when he gives his attention to it by connection, he should do so not by
the beginning, middle and end, but rather by touching and by fixing.
198. There is no attention to be given to it by touching separate from fixing
fixing(concentration) doesn't mean frozen stupor, it means non-clinging. The big paragraphs just elaborate on it.
Last edited by auto on Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by Coëmgenu »

waryoffolly wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 5:00 pmSee the Phd thesis here- there are other commentators of various schools mentioned. Some also view jhana as the five senses shut, but also maintain an experience of the body through one way or another (such as “storehouse consciousness” in the yogacara): https://pqdtopen.proquest.com/doc/87344 ... ml?FMT=ABS
I think the website you linked to has re-organized itself, and the link is now dead.
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by frank k »

auto wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:41 pm ..
If you're aware of the breath in some fashion, however mindlessly, it's not VRJ (vism. redefintion of jhana).
a disembodied state you can't be aware of your breath, or hear sounds.
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by auto »

frank k wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:48 pm
auto wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:41 pm ..
If you're aware of the breath in some fashion, however mindlessly, it's not VRJ (vism. redefintion of jhana).
a disembodied state you can't be aware of your breath, or hear sounds.
but the quote contradicts with what you say.
wrote:3–4. So when he gives his attention to it by connection, he should do so not by
the beginning, middle and end, but rather by touching and by fixing.
if you don't feel the breath then how do you know to give attention to the breath to count it by touch and fixing(concentration)? 'touch' is when the breath touches definite location on a body.

besides this, have you been listened Brahm guided meditations recently? he is no way teaching ambulance jhana, you have been fallen to the smack legend talking what seem to be some compulsory habit, the reality of Brahm meditation is noob(devoid of reasons). * i only listened so far, perhaps he teaches something at the end part apart from 'be nice to pain and it stops by itself' dogma.
The body scan what he does is mainstream, useless <-- no way one can derive from that he is going to achieve any ambulance jhana.
In short there is no point mention him as someone who is doing 'wrong jhana' while he is actually mainstream as mainstream can get, it is false propaganda.
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by Coëmgenu »

Frank likely already knows this, and it's actually been repeated a few times on the forum, but I think this could do with repeating for newer forum members. The "technical" explanation for why there would be "no awareness in jhāna save for awareness of jhana" is that there is "no sati in jhāna." You are aware of the jhāna, but absolutely nothing else (i.e. no reflexive self-awareness to reflect that "I am in jhana" until after the fact, despite having experienced the jhāna). There is simply the experience of the jhāna, which is disembodied and characterized by "only one citta," the citta of the jhāna and/or the nimitta, whichever language we want to use.

The key here to understanding the "no sati in jhana" perspective, IMO, if I've any understanding of it at all, is that there is sañña in jhāna, but not sati. That is the dominant Theravādin exegesis of the matter, unless I'm to be corrected concerning sañña in jhāna. If there is no sañña in jhāna... I don't think anyone is likely to argue that anyways. We'll cross that bridge if and when we come to it.

So, according to the mainstream Theravādin conceptions about the jhānas, practitioners actually do experience them, but only reflexively examine the experience in retrospect as something in the past that they experienced. There is no sati, no vipassanā, in traditional Theravādin jhāna while the practitioner is experiencing the jhāna itself, but the experiencer does indeed experience it. He simply doesn't "reflect" or "recollect" while he is in the jhāna.

I found an interesting paper that people might be interested in reading here, from it:
Shankman interviews several contemporary teachers regarding their understanding and use of the jhānas. Most of those interviewed agree that there is a range of jhānas-like states available to the practitioner depending on depth of concentration or method of entry, but vary as to what qualities they attribute to the jhānas proper, particularly with respect to the degree to which the five sensory consciousnesses are engaged. With the exception of Ajaan Thanissaro and Bhante Gunaratana, the interviewees seem to agree that it is not really feasible to do vipassanā in jhāna or, at least, not in the second jhāna and above. Thanissaro, who trained in the Thai forest tradition, explains that while one can become absorbed in a jhāna to the point where vipassanā is impossible, one can pull back a bit from a jhāna that is not totally secluded from the five senses in order to contemplate the experience of the jhāna in terms of the four noble truths. In his interview with Shankman and in a separate essay, Bhante Gunaratana strongly advocates practicing vipassanā within jhāna : “If you want to come out of jhāna to practice vipassanā, then you should not waste your valuable time to attain it at all.” The reason, according to Gunaratana, is that the “purity, concentration, light, and mindfulness” of the jhāna fade as the hindrances rush back upon exiting the jhāna. He concedes that there may be a kind of state wherein the mind is utterly absorbed in the object to the point where vipassanā is impossible, but suggests that this is the (undesirable) result of cultivating jhāna without sufficient mindfulness (sati). Although Thanissaro and Gunaratana agree that it is possible to do vipassanā within jhāna and that there is bodily awareness in jhāna, they rely on different methods of entry. Thanissaro mentions that jhāna can be cultivated using the four foundations of mindfulness (satipaṭṭhāna) and specifically describes directing attention towards the pleasant sensation that result from increased concentration to deepen jhāna. Focusing on these sensations (pīti and/or sukha) in order to enter and deepen (the first three) jhānas is a common modern practice, which takes its cue and/or derives authority from one of the standard canonical formulations of the jhānas found in the Sāmaññaphala Sutta

[...]

Both Vasubandhu and the Vaibhāṣika take as authoritative the sūtra formula that outlines the four factors that predominate in the first dhyāna and fall away in the higher dhyānas (the elimination formula) as well as another formula that emphasizes the positive qualities that develop and predominate in each successive dhyāna (development formula):

Elimination formula:
1st dhyāna: vitarka, vicāra, prīti, sukha
2nd dhyāna: prīti, sukha
3rd dhyāna: sukha
4th dhyāna: [upekṣā]

Development formula:
1st dhyāna: vitarka, vicāra, prīti, sukha, cittaikāgratā.
2nd dhyāna: adhyātmasamprasāda, prīti, sukha, cittaikāgratā
3rd dhyāna: [saṃskāra-]upekṣā, smṛti, samprajñāna, sukha, samādhi
4th dhyāna: aduḥkhāsukhāvedanā, upekṣāpariśuddhi, smṛtipariśuddhi, samādhi
(p. 264 & 271 of the linked article)

I encounter mostly the elimination formula in Mahayana Buddhism, actually exclusively. I've seen the so-called "development formula" in Pali suttas before, but have never looked for analogues in later sectarian sources and Mahayana sutras, etc. It's something to look out for. Why on earth is samādhi only associated with the 3rd and 4th dhyānas? Very odd. Does cittaikāgratā drop out in dhyāna 4 according to this schema? Very interesting.

A "Mahāyāna version" of the eliminative formula adds ekāgratā to all of the rūpadhyānas and has ekāgratā replace upekṣā in the fourth, but this is the specific presentation of Ven Zhìzhě in his magnum opus, Mahāśamathavipaśyanā, and where he pulls his material equivalent to "early Buddhism" from is rather eclectic to the point where we can't reliably call anything he says "early Buddhism," no matter how old the documents he was looking at in his library were. Suffice to say, in this schema, the 1st dhyāna has 5 factors and one is eliminated at each dhyāna, leaving 1 factor, ekāgratā, in the 4th. Ekāgratā is used to "turn away" (還) from rūpa, one of the six steps of mindfulness of the breath in the Tiāntāi tradition. Herein, the "turning away" from the breath constitutes the "turning away" from rūpa, the previous steps of "counting" (數), "following" (隨), "śamatha" (止), and "vipaśyanā" (觀) all taking the breath as an object, namely as also a form of rūpa. The Tiāntāi/Mahāyāna version with five factors in the first dhyāna seems to be combining the first dhyānas of the developmental and eliminative models. But enough digression.

The most critical citation to the material I quoted, that I tragically don't have access to, is a paper called "Should We Come Out of Jhana to Practice Vipassana?" by Venerable Gunaratana, where he elaborates on vipassanā in jhāna from an allegedly Theravādin perspective. I know nothing about Ven Gunaratana. I don't know if he is a modernist or a practitioner of nonstandard Theravāda or if he is considered "traditional."
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waryoffolly
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by waryoffolly »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:45 pm
waryoffolly wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 5:00 pmSee the Phd thesis here- there are other commentators of various schools mentioned. Some also view jhana as the five senses shut, but also maintain an experience of the body through one way or another (such as “storehouse consciousness” in the yogacara): https://pqdtopen.proquest.com/doc/87344 ... ml?FMT=ABS
I think the website you linked to has re-organized itself, and the link is now dead.
Here’s an updated link: https://www.proquest.com/docview/873442 ... 8C4F47PQ/2
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frank k
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by frank k »

auto wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:56 pm ...
besides this, have you been listened Brahm guided meditations recently? he is no way teaching ambulance jhana, you have been fallen to the smack legend talking what seem to be some compulsory habit, the reality of Brahm meditation is noob(devoid of reasons). * i only listened so far, perhaps he teaches something at the end part apart from 'be nice to pain and it stops by itself' dogma.
The body scan what he does is mainstream, useless <-- no way one can derive from that he is going to achieve any ambulance jhana.
In short there is no point mention him as someone who is doing 'wrong jhana' while he is actually mainstream as mainstream can get, it is false propaganda.
He maybe doing some mainstream sutta compliant meditation teaching for "access concentration", but I'm not aware of him retracting his heretical views on jhana which match vism.
examples here:
(excerpt from his interview with shankhman)
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/ ... l#flink-35

and I point out in detail the heresies in his breath meditation jhana here:
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/ ... index.html
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frank k
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by frank k »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:04 pm ...
The most critical citation to the material I quoted, that I tragically don't have access to, is a paper called "Should We Come Out of Jhana to Practice Vipassana?" by Venerable Gunaratana, where he elaborates on vipassanā in jhāna from an allegedly Theravādin perspective. I know nothing about Ven Gunaratana. I don't know if he is a modernist or a practitioner of nonstandard Theravāda or if he is considered "traditional."
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/ ... index.html
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
waryoffolly
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by waryoffolly »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:04 pm The key here to understanding the "no sati in jhana" perspective, IMO, if I've any understanding of it at all, is that there is sañña in jhāna, but not sati. That is the dominant Theravādin exegesis of the matter, unless I'm to be corrected concerning sañña in jhāna. If there is no sañña in jhāna... I don't think anyone is likely to argue that anyways. We'll cross that bridge if and when we come to it.
It’s simply not the dominant theravada exegesis (that I’ve seen) until the Vidsuddhimagga, and even in the Vidsuddhimagga there is some evidence of a less absorbed model. The theravada commentaries are not a single unified whole, but represent multiple voices. There are multiple commentarial works/passages (and even works in the abhidhamma) that clearly state bodily experience in jhana, and that vipassana is done from jhana. Currently my hypothesis is that the earlier the strata of commentary, the more likely vipassana is done inside jhana. There are also many, many modern theravada teachers who don’t teach absorbed jhana, so you also shouldn’t say:
So, according to the mainstream Theravādin conceptions about the jhānas, practitioners actually do experience them, but only reflexively examine the experience in retrospect as something in the past that they experienced. There is no sati, no vipassanā, in traditional Theravādin jhāna while the practitioner is experiencing the jhāna itself, but the experiencer does indeed experience it. He simplyp we doesn't "reflect" or "recollect" while he is in the jhāna.
This is incorrect, and labels a large number of famous and respected monastics as “outside of the mainstream”. As you are aware “mainstream theravada” is pluralistic. As such it would also be incorrect to label the mainstream as teaching embodied jhana.
The most critical citation to the material I quoted, that I tragically don't have access to, is a paper called "Should We Come Out of Jhana to Practice Vipassana?" by Venerable Gunaratana, where he elaborates on vipassanā in jhāna from an allegedly Theravādin perspective. I know nothing about Ven Gunaratana. I don't know if he is a modernist or a practitioner of nonstandard Theravāda or if he is considered "traditional."
He most definitely is traditional, with a traditional theravada education and solid background in the abhidhamma and commentarial literature. He even employs commentarial ideas when teaching jhana. The reason he now teaches embodied jhana where vipassana is possible is because of the multiple clearcut examples in the suttas I mentioned earlier (as far as I can tell).

Also, there are other modern scholars who believe jhana is an embodied experience. Google scholar will assist you in identifying them.

This debate is ultimately about the willingness to be wrong, and to conduct a full survey of the source texts. If you do so, you will likely be surprised what you find in these earlier commentarial texts, I certainly have been! The sad truth is that people often read/are taught about a commentary of a commentary (sometimes of a commentary again!) and then ignore or rationalize clearcut statements in the suttas, or the earliest commentarial strata to fit into late commentarial boxes. Many people who write on jhana are doing so, sadly. I wish this wasn’t the case, and I wish I could just agree with everyone, but it would require me to twist my reason into ridiculous loops, and rationalizations. Because of these unfortunate tendencies you must look for yourself to see what is actually being said.

(From a practical perspective though-post “absorbed jhana” samadhi is likely capable of breaking fetters in my current view. So I’m not claiming those who disagree with me have “completely wrong practice”. Probably the post-absorbed-jhana, that is after exiting, samadhi is exactly the same level of samadhi that I would label jhana, so I suspect both views may arrive at the same place in the end. Thus, the conversation is more about “which style of jhana do the texts say?” and “which style of jhana is more efficient for practice?” rather than “which style of jhana makes you a heretic????!!!!”)
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by Coëmgenu »

waryoffolly wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:51 pmAs you are aware “mainstream theravada” is pluralistic.
I'm not, actually, hence am open to being contradicted when I state an opinion on mine on "what seems to be" the mainstream or dominant exegesis. I have an understanding of Theravada as non-pluralistic on an "institutional level," but pluralistic at the level of "the religion of the people" and various monks who practice what I know to be "minority traditions," be that a correct or incorrect appraisal.

The bhikkhus at the Scarborough Mahavihara in Scarborough, Ontario, and at Tisarana in Perth, Ontario, are my principle window into what I consider to be "mainstream Theravada," because they teach according to the Vidsuddhimagga and do not see the Vidsuddhimagga and Abhidhamma as contradicting at all. Now, whether Vidsuddhimagga does contradict the Abhidhamma in some parts and whether the Pali Abhidhamma has "embodied jhana" sections, that is a different matter, I suppose. Those two monasteries and contacts there are my only actual personal windows into Theravada Buddhism, the rest comes from conversations with some Sri Lankan friends that I have and reading various materials (or watching various materials) prepared by people who seem to be "establishment folks," but only according to my own arbitrary criteria. Do you think that so-called "minority traditions" are part of the "mainstream?" Do you think it's an artificial distinction to associate "mainstream" Theravada with institutional forms of it with standardized Buddhist curricula and associated exegeses?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by waryoffolly »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:07 pm
waryoffolly wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:51 pmAs you are aware “mainstream theravada” is pluralistic.
I'm not, actually, hence am open to being contradicted when I state an opinion on mine on "what seems to be" the mainstream or dominant exegesis. I have an understanding of Theravada as non-pluralistic on an "institutional level," but pluralistic at the level of "the religion of the people" and various monks who practice what I know to be "minority traditions," be that a correct or incorrect appraisal.

The bhikkhus at the Scarborough Mahavihara in Scarborough, Ontario, and at Tisarana in Perth, Ontario, are my principle window into what I consider to be "mainstream Theravada," because they teach according to the Vidsuddhimagga and do not see the Vidsuddhimagga and Abhidhamma as contradicting at all. Now, whether Vidsuddhimagga does contradict the Abhidhamma in some parts and whether the Pali Abhidhamma has "embodied jhana" sections, that is a different matter, I suppose. Those two monasteries and contacts there are my only actual personal windows into Theravada Buddhism, the rest comes from conversations with some Sri Lankan friends that I have and reading various materials (or watching various materials) prepared by people who seem to be "establishment folks," but only according to my own arbitrary criteria. Do you think that so-called "minority traditions" are part of the "mainstream?" Do you think it's an artificial distinction to associate "mainstream" Theravada with institutional forms of it with standardized Buddhist curricula and associated exegeses?
These are good questions, thanks. I’m not so sure thinking about it more carefully here. My knowledge here is coming from my exposure to english-speaking monastics. There are many english-speaking monastics who teach embodied jhana/vipassana in jhana or at the very least effectively teach that way without labelling it as such. But probably you’re correct on a global scale that Vidsuddhimagga style is more mainstream. Thanks for the correction, which I’m tentatively accepting for now.

By the way, interestingly Vidsuddhimagga recommends maintaining access samadhi 24/7 (minus sleep) based on my reading. From my perspective their access samadhi seems awfully close ,if not identical, to what I’d consider jhana. Access samadhi in Vidsuddhimagga includes five sense contacts and sukhindriyam. So again, practicing jhana from Vidsuddhimagga instructions is not “wrong practice” necessarily in my view. I’m reiterating this to avoid others trying to put my views into a box and label them as “the other side”. I don’t think you in particular would do so though 🙂.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by Coëmgenu »

waryoffolly wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:28 pmThere are many english-speaking monastics who teach embodied jhana/vipassana in jhana or at the very least effectively teach that way without labelling it as such. But probably you’re correct on a global scale that Vidsuddhimagga style is more mainstream.
Possibly. I've also heard that all sorts of wild things go down on terms of esoteric doctrine and practice in Thailand once you leave the cities and enter the countryside, and I'm sure the country-city divide is more complex than simply orthodox-heterodox tendencies for each side. Sri Lanka, for instance, also has a tendency to produce Buddhism-derived New Religious Movements and new Buddhist sects that teach "uncovered" esoteric meanings supposedly found in the Pali texts.

An interesting comparison might be belief in reincarnation amongst American Catholics. A 2018 Pew survey found that 36% of American Catholics believe in reincarnation. Reincarnation is not a "mainstream" Catholic belief, but not because only 36% believe it. 36% is a decently-sized minority. That being said, reincarnation is not a part of mainstream Catholicism. For instance, it would likely be harder to find this 36% statistic corresponding to those amongst the clergy, etc., of Catholicism, because reincarnation is a "spiritual" or "folk" belief of these Catholics unrelated to their catechesis. This might not be a perfect comparison either. For instance, it seems to me that some degree of senses or "embodiment" in jhana is a lot less of an eccentric stance to take in Theravada Buddhism than a Catholic deciding that souls reincarnate in Catholicism.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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