MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
BrokenBones
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by BrokenBones »

mikenz66 wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 10:52 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 10:37 pm Right Samadhi is the pinnacle of the path... it matters.
Sure. But unless one has attained the pinnacle it might be counterproductive to think that one knows what that pinnacle actually is.

Besides, my main point is that whether one thinks that lite-jhana is all there is, and that is where insight arises, or whether one sees that lite-jhana as what happens before or after hard-jhana, the actual insight occurs in a lite-jhana/vipassana-jhana/non-jhana state.

What the hard-jhana advocates would say is that having experienced the amount of letting go necessary to get to that point is essential to full awakening. But not essential for lower levels.


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Mike
Hi mike

I'm sorry... I don't quite follow your whole argument.

Analogy of my understanding of your post...

To me, it seems like you're saying you live in a town and you want to visit a town 5 miles away... instead of going directly there you travel 200 miles to the big city... you're miles away from where you want to be (and the bright lights are just so alluring).

Why not just go directly to where you need to be?

Once you're enamoured by the bright lights... there's every chance you'll get lost trying to find your way back.
skandha
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by skandha »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 10:37 pm Right Samadhi is the pinnacle of the path... it matters. Two options...

One is in a state of unawareness/lack of will/in a grip of intense concentration so strong that people could kick you and you not know it... what's happened?
All the path has been trod only to culminate in a blanking of the senses and a total loss of mindfulness (especially the body)? Now you've trod the path... you have to walk backwards to a point where you can actually start being aware again?

Or...

The path has been trod... the senses have been calmed/mindfulness reaches its peak/the seven factors are in balance and insight can/may occur?

To think that the eighth factor can be messed around with and it doesn't really matter as long as it's 'concentration' is similar to the mental gymnastics that go on around sila re drinking/sex/lying/killing... you might get a type of sila but is it right sila?
The Buddha and his arahant disciples, did practice the type of absorption where people could kick him and not know. In the Mahaparinibbana Sutta, the Buddha did not hear the strong and loud thunder that killed some people and farm animals, he did not hear the commotion after it, and was totally unaware of it, to the amazement of the people that informed him about it. If not in the 4 jhanas, the above mentioned absorption is certainly applicable to the pinnacle of the path, the attainment of cessation, nirodha samapatti.

When the senses are well trained, well restraint and calmed, there comes up a time when it will be stilled on it's own accord. However the main point is that whether the senses are active or stilled, the activity of craving is stilled. It's just like while he was walking the Buddha told Angulimala, "Aṅgulimāla, I have forever stopped". Also the Buddha while walking back and forth he can still experience the blissful jhanic (or jhanic like) state.
secluded from sensual pleasures … fourth absorption… When I’m practicing like this, if I walk, at that time I walk like the gods. - AN 3.63
Whether you think the walking is while he is the state of jhana or after he emerged from jhana it does not matter. He has forever stopped craving, the cause of suffering and this is the stilling that matters.
A true master of knowledge has passed beyond all that is known and become dispassionate towards all vedanās.
- Sn 529
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mikenz66
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by mikenz66 »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 11:11 pm I'm sorry... I don't quite follow your whole argument.
OK, let me try to spell it out in a very simplistic manner.

Suppose someone practice diligently and sometimes attains a level of absorption that some call jhana, and others call lite jhana. What difference would it make whether or not they label it "jhana"?

If they are in the lite-jhana school they label it jhana and go about investigating phenomena and letting go of attachments. If they are in the hard-jhana school they don't label it jhana and go about investigating phenomena and letting go of attachments.

In either case, if the conditions are right, some insight may arise, or they may go into a higher jhana, or they may go from a lite jhana to a hard jhana, or they may, eventually, nibbanize...

What difference does it make to progress to label a particular state jhana? Is it a hindrance to underestimate the level of absorption? Is it a hindrance to overestimate their level of absorption?

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Mike
waryoffolly
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by waryoffolly »

mikenz66 wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 3:46 am OK, let me try to spell it out in a very simplistic manner.

Suppose someone practice diligently and sometimes attains a level of absorption that some call jhana, and others call lite jhana. What difference would it make whether or not they label it "jhana"?

If they are in the lite-jhana school they label it jhana and go about investigating phenomena and letting go of attachments. If they are in the hard-jhana school they don't label it jhana and go about investigating phenomena and letting go of attachments.

In either case, if the conditions are right, some insight may arise, or they may go into a higher jhana, or they may go from a lite jhana to a hard jhana, or they may, eventually, nibbanize...

What difference does it make to progress to label a particular state jhana? Is it a hindrance to underestimate the level of absorption? Is it a hindrance to overestimate their level of absorption?

:heart:
Mike

Thanks for this Mike. This is pretty close to my view as well. Another thing to consider is “will repeatedly debating/reading about jhana on dhammawheel help or hinder my attainment of jhana?” (Regardless of which “camp” you are in.)

In my practice spending too much time on reading the jhana debates has been a hindrance for sure. I feel worried when I post here that I may get drawn into such arguments.
BrokenBones
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by BrokenBones »

mikenz66 wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 3:46 am
BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 11:11 pm I'm sorry... I don't quite follow your whole argument.
OK, let me try to spell it out in a very simplistic manner.

Suppose someone practice diligently and sometimes attains a level of absorption that some call jhana, and others call lite jhana. What difference would it make whether or not they label it "jhana"?

If they are in the lite-jhana school they label it jhana and go about investigating phenomena and letting go of attachments. If they are in the hard-jhana school they don't label it jhana and go about investigating phenomena and letting go of attachments.

In either case, if the conditions are right, some insight may arise, or they may go into a higher jhana, or they may go from a lite jhana to a hard jhana, or they may, eventually, nibbanize...

What difference does it make to progress to label a particular state jhana? Is it a hindrance to underestimate the level of absorption? Is it a hindrance to overestimate their level of absorption?

:heart:
Mike
Ok, I'll try to keep it as simple...

Labelling has nothing to do with it.

If you're following hard jhana instructions you will not enter sutta jhana... the mode of perception is different, the desire is different, hindrances are crushed not abandoned/released. Attempting to put all your attention on one point to block out the unwholesome will not lead you to sutta jhana.

Once you come out of hard jhana there is a residue of calm still lingering but the hindrances are still as strong in the background... you've not worked on them... you've just used masses of energy to push them down for a short while.

The real 'hindrance' is not working to release and abandon the hindrances but instead using highly concentrated states with no discernment to temporarily crush them. Working on insight post jhana is not worthless but the hindrances are still in hiding... your insight practice has very little to 'see'.

Sutta jhana involves releasing and abandoning the hindrances... obviously temporarily at first... it is a cumulative effect... chipping away over time.

Hard jhana treats the hindrances as things to be blocked out and crushed.
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mikenz66
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by mikenz66 »

BrokenBones wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 6:01 am Labelling has nothing to do with it.

If you're following hard jhana instructions you will not enter sutta jhana... the mode of perception is different, the desire is different, hindrances are crushed not abandoned/released. Attempting to put all your attention on one point to block out the unwholesome will not lead you to sutta jhana.
Oh, OK then. Thanks for clarifying your view of how it might work.

Personally I don't go actively seeking hard jhanas, since I think that for most people that would require longer retreats than is currently possible for me. So if I made any progress in absorption, it would be to the lite/vipassana-jhana level, and that's the context of my questioning about labelling the experience.

In any case, thanks for your perspective, and best wishes for your practice.

:heart:
Mike
BrokenBones
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by BrokenBones »

mikenz66 wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 6:21 am
BrokenBones wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 6:01 am Labelling has nothing to do with it.

If you're following hard jhana instructions you will not enter sutta jhana... the mode of perception is different, the desire is different, hindrances are crushed not abandoned/released. Attempting to put all your attention on one point to block out the unwholesome will not lead you to sutta jhana.
Oh, OK then. Thanks for clarifying your view of how it might work.

Personally I don't go actively seeking hard jhanas, since I think that for most people that would require longer retreats than is currently possible for me. So if I made any progress in absorption, it would be to the lite/vipassana-jhana level, and that's the context of my questioning about labelling the experience.

In any case, thanks for your perspective, and best wishes for your practice.

:heart:
Mike
Thanks 🙏

And may your progress be smooth 😁
Dweller
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by Dweller »

Perhaps, real jhana of Ajahn Brahm is something it was done in the times of Buddha and can be done now.

But, perhaps developing concentration so hard was not mentioned as a factor needed to enter jhana.
BrokenBones
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by BrokenBones »

Dweller wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 9:05 am Perhaps, real jhana of Ajahn Brahm is something it was done in the times of Buddha and can be done now.

But, perhaps developing concentration so hard was not mentioned as a factor needed to enter jhana.
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frank k
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by frank k »

polite reminder:

https://lucid24.org/tped/j/jhana-lite/index.html

excerpt:

Jhāna-lite, jhana light, as opposed to ‘jhāna-heavy’
.
.
What is “jhāna-lite”?
"jhana-lite" is a pejorative, derogatory term expressing contempt or disapproval at a straightforward plain language understanding of the Buddha's definition of 'jhāna'.
Instead, the preferred and exalted 'jhana-heavy' is somehow supposed to represent the Buddha's true intention of 'jhana', even though that understanding comes from Buddhist schools hundreds of years later, and requires a byzantine and nonsensical overriding of common word meanings, which would require a time traveler to go back to the Buddha's time to inform him of the new definitions, so that the new meditation instructions would actually work when the Monks tried to put the Jhana instructions to use. Examples:
'body' is redefined as 'mind',
'material form consisting of 4 elements' is redefined as 'non material ethereal form with mind divorced from any bodily sensation',
'thoughts that one thinks before vocalizing them' is redefined has 'placing the mind' (divorced from any content of thought).
strong advisory
It would be strongly advisable not to use the term 'Jhana lite' to denigrate those who place primacy on the Buddha's words in the EBT suttas over the redefinition and reinterpretation of Buddhists who came hundreds of years later in late Abhidhamma and Visuddhimagga. This is tantamount to slandering the Buddha.
acceptable terms to characterize the Buddha’s definition of jhāna
1. “EBT jhāna”: how jhāna is defined in Early Buddhist Texts
2. “sutta jhāna’ how jhāna is defined in pali suttas.
3. “Jhāna”: This is the preferred method. Out of respect to the Buddha, we should automatically assume we’re using his definition, not a redefinition that came several hundred years later.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
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Ceisiwr
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by Ceisiwr »

frank k wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 2:34 pm
What is “jhāna-lite”?
Fake news.
1. “EBT jhāna”: how jhāna is defined in Early Buddhist Texts
2. “sutta jhāna’ how jhāna is defined in pali suttas.
3. “Jhāna”: This is the preferred method. Out of respect to the Buddha, we should automatically assume we’re using his definition, not a redefinition that came several hundred years later.
Accept the likes of Ajahn Brahm, Ajahn Sujato and Ven. Anālayo all agree with the correct understanding that the Jhāna are absorbed states by way of the EBT and suttas/agamas only.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by Coëmgenu »

I think that instead of "light" and "hard," it should be "disembodied" versus "embodied" jhana. When jhana is interpreted in such a way that there is only manovinnana, then the jhana is "disembodied." If you have eye, ear, body, and mind, then the jhana is "embodied."
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
waryoffolly
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by waryoffolly »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 4:11 pm I think that instead of "light" and "hard," it should be "disembodied" versus "embodied" jhana. When jhana is interpreted in such a way that there is only manovinnana, then the jhana is "disembodied." If you have eye, ear, body, and mind, then the jhana is "embodied."
Well many northern school say the five senses are shut off, but there is still bodily experience. For example a sarvastivada commentator (don’t remember which one) states that one can feel the breath in jhana “like a string through a pearl” even though the five senses are shut because one deploys “upaya”/skillful means. So five senses shut may mean something more subtle for the sarvastivada. Thus disembodied isn’t a fair description either in all cases for those who state five senses are shut in jhana. I find this position quite strange though!

See the Phd thesis here- there are other commentators of various schools mentioned. Some also view jhana as the five senses shut, but also maintain an experience of the body through one way or another (such as “storehouse consciousness” in the yogacara): https://pqdtopen.proquest.com/doc/87344 ... ml?FMT=ABS
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Ceisiwr
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by Ceisiwr »

waryoffolly wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 5:00 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 4:11 pm I think that instead of "light" and "hard," it should be "disembodied" versus "embodied" jhana. When jhana is interpreted in such a way that there is only manovinnana, then the jhana is "disembodied." If you have eye, ear, body, and mind, then the jhana is "embodied."
Well many northern school say the five senses are shut off, but there is still bodily experience. For example a sarvastivada commentator (don’t remember which one) states that one can feel the breath in jhana “like a string through a pearl” even though the five senses are shut because one deploys “upaya”/skillful means. So five senses shut may mean something more subtle for the sarvastivada. Thus disembodied isn’t a fair description either in all cases for those who state five senses are shut in jhana. I find this position quite strange though!

See the Phd thesis here- there are other commentators of various schools mentioned. Some also view jhana as the five senses shut, but also maintain an experience of the body through one way or another (such as “storehouse consciousness” in the yogacara): https://pqdtopen.proquest.com/doc/87344 ... ml?FMT=ABS
Interesting paper. I have only skimmed, but I liked this:
According to the Yogācārabhūmi, vitarka and vicāra, the two dhyāna factors, are skillful thoughts or wholesome intentions which enable a meditator to abandon sensuality and the unwholesome qualities that belong to the sense-sphere realm (kāmadhātu).244 Asaṅga, in his *Prakaraṇāryavācaśāstra, clearly points out that these two dhyāna factors are skillful thoughts connected with renunciation, non-ill will, and non-cruelty.245 Sthiramati, in his *Abhidharmasamuccayavyākhyā, also says that the function of these two dhyāna factors is for one to abandon unskillful thoughts connected with sensual desire, ill will, and cruelty, giving rise to rapture (prīti/pīti) and pleasure (sukha).246 In this context, vitarka and vicāra signify skillful thoughts connected with renunciation, non-ill will, and non-cruelty, which enable a meditator to withdraw from sensual pleasures and unwholesome states, so as to enter the first dhyāna. After one attains the first dhyāna, vitarka and vicāra still act as skillful thoughts which steady the mind in this dhyāna. Then it is said that one enters the second dhyāna through the stilling of vitarka and vicāra. 247 In other words, skillful thoughts or wholesome intentions cease while one is in the second dhyāna, not the fourth dhyāna.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"

Post by Coëmgenu »

Well, the Yogacarins as understood by the Tantrikas over at DharmaWheel all seem to have soft dhyanas up to the third. The Gelugpas are considered unique because they think that mindfulness of breath can lead you to the fourth dhyana.

I cautiously contest the assertions in the post about the "Northern" tradition, but haven't read the paper yet.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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