first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

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confusedlayman
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by confusedlayman »

buddhaghosa is arhant because what he said he experienced by him I think.. what he didn't experience or say he mentioned the source if im not wrong
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
BrokenBones
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by BrokenBones »

So much nonsense and half baked ideas. I have read the Vism. and found it interesting but also deficient. Buddhaghosa was not an arahant... he even wished for a good rebirth (although apologists will say that the wish was put in by someone else).

People will believe (love) what they want to believe. I believe in the suttas and any teaching that supports them; whether from ancient or modern commentators.

I don't believe in deifying a book; especially one that has major discrepancies with the suttas.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 1:39 pm Buddhaghosa was not an arahant... he even wished for a good rebirth (although apologists will say that the wish was put in by someone else).
There is no need to repeat discredited smears of Ven. Buddhaghosa.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
auto
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by auto »

frank k wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 4:33 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 2:56 pm ...
Vism supports that meditator can do jhana and also vipasanna based on jhana
but not at the same time.
And that causes huge problems with how monastics do their main practice.
I've spend 10 years in that Vism. system and have witnessed hundreds, if not thousands of earnest diligent meditators suffering needlessly because they're following a misguided approach.
They spend years chasing a pure samatha, while neglecting the vipassana that would happen organically, holistically, and simultaneously with developing jhanas according to the EBT suttas.
Vipassana is under the wisdom and mindfulness is under the samadhi. I think you are meaning mindfulness and jhana at the same time, not vipassana and jhana.
I think the fault of the people you mention is that they try get concentration without purifying the mind. If mind is purified enough it attains jhana, or if to be more precise it attains the entrance spot.

Visuddhimagga,
pdf p197- wrote:Enters upon (upasampajja): arrives at; reaches, is what is meant; or else, taking
it as “makes enter” (upasampádayitvá), then producing, is what is meant. In the
Vibhaòga this is said: “‘Enters upon’: the gaining, the regaining, the reaching,
the arrival at, the touching, the realizing of, the entering upon (upasampadá, the
first jhána” (Vibh 257), the meaning of which should be regarded in the same
way.
..
111. “Of the first jhána, purification of the way is the beginning, intensification
of equanimity is the middle, and satisfaction is the end.

“‘Of the first jhána, purification of the way is the beginning’: how many
characteristics has the beginning? The beginning has three characteristics: the
mind is purified of obstructions to that [jhána]; because it is purified the mind
makes way for the central [state of equilibrium, which is the] sign of serenity;
because it has made way the mind enters into that state. And it is since the mind
becomes purified of obstructions and, through being purified, makes way for the
central [state of equilibrium, which is the] sign of serenity and, having made way,
enters into that state, that the purification of the way is the beginning of the first
jhána.
and don't forget the jhana factors, since they are from what you know you are in jhana.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 2:37 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 1:39 pm Buddhaghosa was not an arahant... he even wished for a good rebirth (although apologists will say that the wish was put in by someone else).
There is no need to repeat discredited smears of Ven. Buddhaghosa.
Indeed, those who say such things are literally lying by this point, unless they are extraordinarily ignorant and do not yet know that the copyeditor's colophon is clearly not Ven Buddhaghosa's. This has been discussed to death on this site, and I really can't believe in someone being a frequenter of the forum for so long and not knowing this. Maybe they just lack the critical skills to judge the assessment of the colophon as not being Ven Buddhaghosa's as obviously true.
The spotless mind,
the most highly pure, the tranquil,
all unspoiled phenomena supporting,
this name applying to the consciousness of the Tathāgata.

A bodhisattva, one of two vehicles, an ordinary person:
these are thrones which hold seeds subject to germination.
In acquiring the virtuous pure mind of a Buddha,
which is resolute suchness, the sūtra says:

The Tathāgata's spotless mind
is a pure place without outflows.
It is liberation from all bondage.
It is like a spherical mirror.
It is consciousness always in internal agreement.

(T1585.13a19 Vijñaptimātratāsiddhiśāstra)
sphairos
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by sphairos »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 4:30 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 2:37 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 1:39 pm Buddhaghosa was not an arahant... he even wished for a good rebirth (although apologists will say that the wish was put in by someone else).
There is no need to repeat discredited smears of Ven. Buddhaghosa.
Indeed, those who say such things are literally lying by this point, unless they are extraordinarily ignorant and do not yet know that the copyeditor's colophon is clearly not Ven Buddhaghosa's. This has been discussed to death on this site, and I really can't believe in someone being a frequenter of the forum for so long and not knowing this.
How do you know it? Were you present when the editor wrote the colophon? Ancient Indian colophons are usually very tightly connected to the content of the manuscript and form a continuum with it.

It's just your belief, and Ceisiwr's belief that Visuddhimagga jhāna is "correct" (so Buddhaghosa must be an arahant).
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?
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Coëmgenu
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by Coëmgenu »

The colophon is obviously not Ven Buddhaghosa's. I see we'll have to litigate this. More to come.

I don't really care if he was an Arhat or not, but he obviously didn't write that colophon.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Thu May 13, 2021 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The spotless mind,
the most highly pure, the tranquil,
all unspoiled phenomena supporting,
this name applying to the consciousness of the Tathāgata.

A bodhisattva, one of two vehicles, an ordinary person:
these are thrones which hold seeds subject to germination.
In acquiring the virtuous pure mind of a Buddha,
which is resolute suchness, the sūtra says:

The Tathāgata's spotless mind
is a pure place without outflows.
It is liberation from all bondage.
It is like a spherical mirror.
It is consciousness always in internal agreement.

(T1585.13a19 Vijñaptimātratāsiddhiśāstra)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by Ceisiwr »

sphairos wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 4:36 pm
It's just your belief, and Ceisiwr's belief that Visuddhimagga jhāna is "correct" (so Buddhaghosa must be an arahant).
It’s not a belief. Regarding if he was an Arahant or not, I have no idea. I do disagree with him on a few things.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
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confusedlayman
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by confusedlayman »

Vism and suttas have no contradiction... people without personal experience are debating with bad understanding. If u want lite jhana its up to you but you yourself k ow it dont increase ur concentration for insight so no need to brag about it
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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frank k
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by frank k »

confusedlayman wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 5:20 pm Vism and suttas have no contradiction... people without personal experience are debating with bad understanding. If u want lite jhana its up to you but you yourself k ow it dont increase ur concentration for insight so no need to brag about it
and yet, your signature says:
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Sorry to tell you this, but if you can't tell the differences between what the suttas and Vism. say,
you should shoot for a less ambitious signature and not assume you are learning at all.
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BrokenBones
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by BrokenBones »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 4:30 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 2:37 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 1:39 pm Buddhaghosa was not an arahant... he even wished for a good rebirth (although apologists will say that the wish was put in by someone else).
There is no need to repeat discredited smears of Ven. Buddhaghosa.
Indeed, those who say such things are literally lying by this point, unless they are extraordinarily ignorant and do not yet know that the copyeditor's colophon is clearly not Ven Buddhaghosa's. This has been discussed to death on this site, and I really can't believe in someone being a frequenter of the forum for so long and not knowing this. Maybe they just lack the critical skills to judge the assessment of the colophon as not being Ven Buddhaghosa's as obviously true.
It is not so much the colophon that makes me think that Buddhaghosa is not an arahant (although that in itself is suggestive and open to interpretation) it is the many discrepancies and his rewriting of jhana.

Please note... open to interpretation... not lying... cool thy anger.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 10:55 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 4:30 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 2:37 pm

There is no need to repeat discredited smears of Ven. Buddhaghosa.
Indeed, those who say such things are literally lying by this point, unless they are extraordinarily ignorant and do not yet know that the copyeditor's colophon is clearly not Ven Buddhaghosa's. This has been discussed to death on this site, and I really can't believe in someone being a frequenter of the forum for so long and not knowing this. Maybe they just lack the critical skills to judge the assessment of the colophon as not being Ven Buddhaghosa's as obviously true.
It is not so much the colophon that makes me think that Buddhaghosa is not an arahant (although that in itself is suggestive and open to interpretation) it is the many discrepancies and his rewriting of jhana.

Please note... open to interpretation... not lying... cool thy anger.
He rewrote nothing. He is relying upon the Aṭṭhakathā, which many take to be in agreement with the suttas on this point.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
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Pondera
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by Pondera »

According to Buddhaghosa, the probability of anyone reaching immersion through nimitta kasina is 1 in 100,000,000.

For real. 1 in one thousand can’t reach the learning sign.

And so, on. I’d love to find the passage, but my love affair with Buddhaghosa ended a long time ago.

Thanks Ghosa, for all the good times. Imma stick to EBT’S from here on out. :jumping:
“Monk, the property of light, the property of beauty, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of space, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the property of the dimension of nothingness: These properties are to be reached as perception attainments.[2] The property of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is to be reached as a remnant-of-fabrications attainment. The property of the cessation of feeling & perception is to be reached as a cessation attainment."[3]

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Ceisiwr
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pondera wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 11:08 pm According to Buddhaghosa, the probability of anyone reaching immersion through nimitta kasina is 1 in 100,000,000.

For real. 1 in one thousand can’t reach the learning sign.

And so, on. I’d love to find the passage, but my love affair with Buddhaghosa ended a long time ago.

Thanks Ghosa, for all the good times. Imma stick to EBT’S from here on out. :jumping:
Really? You are dropping the chakra stuff now?
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
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Pondera
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 11:28 pm
Pondera wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 11:08 pm According to Buddhaghosa, the probability of anyone reaching immersion through nimitta kasina is 1 in 100,000,000.

For real. 1 in one thousand can’t reach the learning sign.

And so, on. I’d love to find the passage, but my love affair with Buddhaghosa ended a long time ago.

Thanks Ghosa, for all the good times. Imma stick to EBT’S from here on out. :jumping:
Really? You are dropping the chakra stuff now?
Was Buddhaghosa a chakra fan? I’m confused :shrug:

Ohhhhhhhhhh. You’re saying EBT’S don’t represent chakras.

Well, I beg to differ, good man.

The colour kasinas are all represented in the body.

They happen to be aligned from ass to head like a rainbow coming out of a unicorn’s ass - from red to ultraviolet.
“Monk, the property of light, the property of beauty, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of space, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the property of the dimension of nothingness: These properties are to be reached as perception attainments.[2] The property of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is to be reached as a remnant-of-fabrications attainment. The property of the cessation of feeling & perception is to be reached as a cessation attainment."[3]

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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