first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 6:44 pm
Ratnakar wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 2:44 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 4:40 pm

It’s not a belief. Regarding if he was an Arahant or not, I have no idea. I do disagree with him on a few things.
What do you disagree with buddhaghosa ?
2) I don't accept sati in ānāpānasati as being mindful of the breath. Rather sati in ānāpānasati refers to being mindful of the teachings (dhammā) regarding wholesome and unwholesome states (thus being a condition for Dhamma-vicaya) whilst breathing.
there are two variants of what mindfulness of breath is mentioned in visuddhimagga, and the visuddhimagga goes with mindfulness attained thanks to the breathing.
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

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auto wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 2:01 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 6:44 pm
Ratnakar wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 2:44 am
What do you disagree with buddhaghosa ?
2) I don't accept sati in ānāpānasati as being mindful of the breath. Rather sati in ānāpānasati refers to being mindful of the teachings (dhammā) regarding wholesome and unwholesome states (thus being a condition for Dhamma-vicaya) whilst breathing.
there are two variants of what mindfulness of breath is mentioned in visuddhimagga, and the visuddhimagga goes with mindfulness attained thanks to the breathing.
That’s very interesting! I always enjoy finding myself in agreement with the commentaries when possible. Can you quote or refer me to where this is stated?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by Ceisiwr »

Ratnakar wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 3:18 am
Do you disagree with buddhaghosa regarding arahantship can be attained Even by bareinsight workers with only momentary concentration ?
I think that was Ven. Dhammapala rather than Ven. Buddhaghosa.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 2:06 pm That’s very interesting! I always enjoy finding myself in agreement with the commentaries when possible. Can you quote or refer me to where this is stated?
yes
quite, i remembered it a bit differently or there just are more quotes about it.
The mindfulness arisen inspired by breathing (ánápána) is mindfulness of
breathing. This is a term for mindfulness that has as its object the sign of inbreaths
and out-breaths.
147. Herein, developed means aroused or increased, concentration through
mindfulness of breathing (lit. “breathing-mindfulness concentration”) is either
concentration associated with mindfulness that discerns breathing, or it is
concentration on mindfulness of breathing. Practiced much: practiced again and again.
This is how an abode is favourable to his development. Hence it was said
above: “This signifies that he has found an abode favourable to the development
of concentration through mindfulness of breathing.”
155. Or alternatively, this mindfulness of breathing as a meditation subject—
which is foremost among the various meditation subjects of all Buddhas, [some]
Paccekabuddhas and [some] Buddhas’ disciples as a basis for attaining
distinction and abiding in bliss here and now—is not easy to develop without
leaving the neighbourhood of villages, which resound with the noises of women,
men, elephants, horses, etc., noise being a thorn to jhána (see A V 135),
you kind of need some inferring. Concentration through mindfulness of breathing.. mindfulness develops samadhinimitta + the info in quotes
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by frank k »

You're using concepts from LBT to reinterpret EBT passages that plainly state that satipatthana and jhana occur simultaneously.
Reading EBT on its own doesn't lead to the conclusions you draw.
See this article for many more sutta examples besides the ones I cited already.
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/ ... index.html
auto wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 1:52 pm
frank k wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:06 pm The Buddha's definition of jhana includes samatha and vipassana concurrent, simultaneous.
See what sati and sampjano do in third jhana, AN 4.41.
And all 7 perception attainments in MN 111.
Vism. redefines jhana to be an arupa samatha only attainment where one can not perceive the body at all, and then one enters a frozen stupor where vipassana is not possible.
They're completely different meditative practices.
If you want to believe Vism.'s redefinition of jhana is better, that's fine. But be clear about what it is and isn't.
Contrary to what Abhidhamma and Vism. claim, Buddha's jhana and their redefinition are completely different things.
I think you are mistaking mindfulness with insight meditation. The idea of insight meditation is to bring characteristic of existence into mind and attain concentration on fruit and if it happens first time it is path fruit. And increasing samadhi power will define what path fruit you attain..
Pure insight meditation uses momentary concentration to attain same as above but without concentration thus also nirodha samapatti is unattainable for them.
The mindfulness and samadhi is together, mindfulness develops samadhinimitta. Insight meditation deals with aggregates are impermanent, suffering no-self whereas sila and samadhi training has understanding of there is afterlife, kamma, doer, heir to the kamma, parents etc.
Insight meditator tries to see characteristics of existence from start with using momentary concentration.

To repeat the insight is for to bring forth the state where you can concentrate on the path fruit what pure insgiht meditaton can't do but get the path anyway
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

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frank k wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 2:29 pm You're using concepts from LBT to reinterpret EBT passages that plainly state that satipatthana and jhana occur simultaneously.
Reading EBT on its own doesn't lead to the conclusions you draw.
See this article for many more sutta examples besides the ones I cited already.
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/ ... index.html
I don't disagree that the jhana is satipatthana.
Sati(mindfulness) is a factor in jhana. And sati develops samadhinimitta, where samadhi training consists of 4 jhana. These are under the samadhi training.
Insight meditation isn't samadhi, it is wisdom training.
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by Ratnakar »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 2:08 pm
Ratnakar wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 3:18 am
Do you disagree with buddhaghosa regarding arahantship can be attained Even by bareinsight workers with only momentary concentration ?
I think that was Ven. Dhammapala rather than Ven. Buddhaghosa.
Ven dhammapala supported it explicitly in his paramatthamanjusa/visuddhimaggamahatika in that "there's no insight without momentary concentration" quote but Ven buddhaghosa still implicitly supported it ,you can refer to those "bare insight workers even though they are non returners or even arahants they can't get Cessation attainment while alive" quote in visuddhimagga
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by frank k »

auto wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 2:59 pm ...
Insight meditation isn't samadhi, it is wisdom training.
again, you're taking LBT concepts and inserting it into EBT, where those kind of distinctions don't exist.
Read through the sutta nipata and iti vuttaka for example, especially where they're attaining arahantship, and look at what words the Buddha is using.
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by auto »

frank k wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 5:49 pm
auto wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 2:59 pm ...
Insight meditation isn't samadhi, it is wisdom training.
again, you're taking LBT concepts and inserting it into EBT, where those kind of distinctions don't exist.
Read through the sutta nipata and iti vuttaka for example, especially where they're attaining arahantship, and look at what words the Buddha is using.
terms are loaded, here's why Visuddhimagga is helpful because it explains.
visuddhimagga wrote: .. it is the means of approach that is called the path.

6. In some instances this path of purification is taught by insight alone,3 according
as it is said:
“Formations are all impermanent:
When he sees thus with understanding
And turns away from what is ill,
That is the path to purity” (Dhp 277). [3]

And in some instances by jhána and understanding, according as it is said:
“He is near unto Nibbána
In whom are jhána and understanding” (Dhp 372).
..
And in some instances by virtue, etc., according as it is said:
“He who is possessed of constant virtue,
Who has understanding, and is concentrated,
Who is strenuous and diligent as well,
Will cross the flood so difficult to cross” (S I 53).
arhant's sila, its different from a beginner. When he receives alms, his mind doesn't enter life continuum.. whatever the thing, there is explanation and i like reasons.
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/4j-is-4sp/index.html wrote: your comment: "Itivuttaka 3.32: He’s in jhāna while walking on almsround"
Itivuttaka 3.32: "Both when receiving offerings & not: his concentration won't waver, he remains heedful: he — continually staying in jhana, subtle in view & clear-seeing, enjoying the ending of clinging — is called a man of integrity."
In Sutta sometimes disciples explain what buddha meant or buddha explains what some deva meant.
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by auto »

Regular person mind doesn't want to enter seclusion and even if get a glimpse of seclusion, has fear to the sukha there, sukha isn't seen it is dukkha instead.
https://suttacentral.net/mn100/en/sujato wrote: Then it occurred to me,
Tassa mayhaṁ, bhāradvāja, etadahosi:
‘Why am I afraid of that pleasure, for it has nothing to do with sensual pleasures or unskillful qualities?’
‘kiṁ nu kho ahaṁ tassa sukhassa bhāyāmi yaṁ taṁ sukhaṁ aññatreva kāmehi aññatra akusalehi dhammehī’ti?
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.136/en/sujato wrote: What others say is happiness
Yaṁ pare sukhato āhu,
the noble ones say is suffering.
tadariyā āhu dukkhato;
What others say is suffering
Yaṁ pare dukkhato āhu,
the noble ones say is happiness.
tadariyā sukhato vidū.
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by Tennok »

frank k wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 3:05 pm
The point of animal video is to show that full bodily pacification (passadhi sambojjhanga) is really easy and natural to do, and it's sorely missing from Vism. "jhana" training systems, where they overly emphasize "one pointedness" above all else, the students who are perfectly capable of doing real jhana (according to Buddha's definition) jhana-block themselves.

Because they're tightening up physically, mentally, getting hypertension, crossed eyes and headaches from trying to find a visual light on their nostril. and doing their best to 'not think' and 'be one pointed.' This is from personal experience observing hundreds of students training in that misguided way.
Okay, such approach seems wrong. Overfocusing and forcing means craving. I've been there and I had such headaches, too. But I know "hard jhana" advocates, who warn against it. They speak about mindfull observation of hindrances - that's a vipassana element - and letting go, as a way toward samadhi. I don't think animals can do it, but I've met a senior monk in Thailand, who told me, that tigers have very strong souls and they are "capable of spiritual development". :smile:

One can believe that "kaya" refers to "body of breath", not the flesh, and that sensory data is irrelevant in jhana, without such too strong focusing on the breath. Also Ekkagata is more about unity with the present moment and meditation object, singularity of perception, than forcing anything. You sound like someone who 've read some really bad novels, and therefore think that whole literature has no value.

Good your method works for you, congratulations. But why belittle all other methods and interpretations, which work for other people?
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

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BrokenBones wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 10:49 am
SarathW wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:34 am
BrokenBones wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:23 am

Can you point to suttas that express this opinion?
In order to develop the knowledge and vision of things as they really...


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el277.html


So that's a no.

A sutta is taken from the Nikayas... not from from another's ideas... no matter how respected the monk is.

here you have,
https://suttacentral.net/mn111/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:
For a fortnight he practiced discernment of phenomena one by one.
sāriputto, bhikkhave, aḍḍhamāsaṁ anupadadhammavipassanaṁ vipassati.
And this is how he did it.
Tatridaṁ, bhikkhave, sāriputtassa anupadadhammavipassanāya hoti.

.
https://suttacentral.net/mn111/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:Furthermore, going totally beyond the dimension of nothingness, he entered and remained in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.
Puna caparaṁ, bhikkhave, sāriputto sabbaso ākiñcaññāyatanaṁ samatikkamma nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṁ upasampajja viharati.

And he emerged from that attainment with mindfulness.
So tāya samāpattiyā sato vuṭṭhahati.
Then he contemplated the phenomena in that attainment that had passed, ceased, and perished:
So tāya samāpattiyā sato vuṭṭhahitvā ye dhammā atītā niruddhā vipariṇatā te dhamme samanupassati:

‘So it seems that these phenomena, not having been, come to be; and having come to be, they flit away.’
‘evaṁ kirame dhammā ahutvā sambhonti, hutvā paṭiventī’ti.
And he meditated without attraction or repulsion for those phenomena; independent, untied, liberated, detached, his mind free of limits.
So tesu dhammesu anupāyo anapāyo anissito appaṭibaddho vippamutto visaṁyutto vimariyādīkatena cetasā viharati.
He understood: ‘There is an escape beyond.’
So ‘atthi uttari nissaraṇan’ti pajānāti.
And by repeated practice he knew for sure that there is.
Tabbahulīkārā atthitvevassa hoti.
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by frank k »

Tennok wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 5:18 pm ...
Good your method works for you, congratulations. But why belittle all other methods and interpretations, which work for other people?
In short, it's because 'my method' is a faithful following of the EBT suttas on jhana using a consistent, coherent lexcion of terms, producing results that match what the suttas say.

For the methods and interpretations that I criticize rightly (not 'belittle' as you say), they require a corrupt lexicon where 'body' is redefined as 'mind', 'verbal thought' is redefined as 'no verbal thought'. Once you start corrupting the lexicon to that degree, you could make the suttas mean anything you want it to mean, resulting in chaos and incoherence. Why follow Buddhism at that point? Just invent your own religion.




excerpt from another thread, similar issue to your question
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... tible.html


I do talk plenty about my meditation experience elsewhere, and have justified in detail how it matches up with a coherent and consistent jhana lexicon.

I'm not ignoring the possibility, in fact I openly acknowledge there are plenty of samadhi training systems that can develop similar qualities to the Buddha's EBT 4 jhana system. But Vism., LBT Abhidhamma, and Ajahn Brahm are nothing like the Buddha's EBT. They may have their strengths and interesting features, but IMO far more weaknesses and problems, compared to the Buddha. By all means people who like Ajahn Brahm or Vism's meditation training system, go ahead and praise it. But don't deceive yourself and others by claiming the EBT is teaching the same meditation system.
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by Ceisiwr »

frank k wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 5:25 pm
Up until the point of absorption the Visuddhimagga method and experience and the non-absorbed Jhana method and experience are the same, so by your own standard people practicing in that way are achieving Jhana.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by Joe.c »

frank k wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 5:25 pm short, it's because 'my method' is a faithful following of the EBT suttas on jhana using a consistent, coherent lexcion of terms, producing results that match what the suttas say.
Good. Remember to follow Sutta, don’t reject anything yet. Jhana can be maintained through daily life once you master them especially 1st jhana.

Remember same nobles knowledge will arise for one who follow the exact path. But knowledge maturity take time, so please be patience. Most people don’t have patience to keep practice and follow the exact instruction (step by step).

Also maintain good morality and know conditions for right view to arise. With good morality, your body will automatically relax, body relax then mind will be relax & unify.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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