first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
SarathW
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by SarathW »

BrokenBones wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:23 am
confusedlayman wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 6:16 pm
frank k wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 4:33 pm

but not at the same time.
And that causes huge problems with how monastics do their main practice.
I've spend 10 years in that Vism. system and have witnessed hundreds, if not thousands of earnest diligent meditators suffering needlessly because they're following a misguided approach.
They spend years chasing a pure samatha, while neglecting the vipassana that would happen organically, holistically, and simultaneously with developing jhanas according to the EBT suttas.
Even in ebt u need to emerge and do vipasanna
Can you point to suttas that express this opinion?
In order to develop the knowledge and vision of things as they really are with respect to the aggregates, the yogin must first emerge from his state of deep concentration, for the analytical faculty — silenced in the folds of serenity — has to be brought into play to effect the required dissection. With his mind made clear and pliant as a result of concentration, the yogin attends to the diverse phenomena coming into range of his awareness. The phenomena are attended to as they become manifest to determine their salient characteristics; then, on this basis, they are assigned to their appropriate place among the aggregates. Whatever is physical belongs to the aggregate of material form; whatever registers affective tone is feeling; whatever notices the object's marks is perception; whatever wills is a mental formation; and whatever cognizes is consciousness. The aggregates may further be grouped into a simpler scheme by placing material form on one side and the four mental aggregates on the other, the two being coupled as mentality-materiality (nama rupa). They are then correlated with their causes and conditions to expose their dependently arisen nature. The analytic procedure generates the realization that experience is just a double stream of material and mental events without a subsisting self. The synthetic procedure makes it clear that all these events are conditioned phenomena which arise when their conditions are present and cease when their conditions disappear.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el277.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
BrokenBones
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by BrokenBones »

SarathW wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:34 am
BrokenBones wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:23 am
confusedlayman wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 6:16 pm
Even in ebt u need to emerge and do vipasanna
Can you point to suttas that express this opinion?
In order to develop the knowledge and vision of things as they really...


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el277.html


So that's a no.

A sutta is taken from the Nikayas... not from from another's ideas... no matter how respected the monk is.
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confusedlayman
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by confusedlayman »

Ratnakar wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 4:05 am
confusedlayman wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 6:16 pm
frank k wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 4:33 pm

but not at the same time.
And that causes huge problems with how monastics do their main practice.
I've spend 10 years in that Vism. system and have witnessed hundreds, if not thousands of earnest diligent meditators suffering needlessly because they're following a misguided approach.
They spend years chasing a pure samatha, while neglecting the vipassana that would happen organically, holistically, and simultaneously with developing jhanas according to the EBT suttas.
Even in ebt u need to emerge and do vipasanna
So one does vippassana only in access not in jhana, doesn't one ?
Post jhana acceess not pre jhana access... after deep jhana may be level 4 (as everyone says) then back to 3, 2 , 1 and then to post jhana access.. since meditator stayed in 4th jhana for some time and came to access his mental faculty will be very sharp and mallible
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
SarathW
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by SarathW »

BrokenBones wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 10:49 am
SarathW wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:34 am
BrokenBones wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:23 am

Can you point to suttas that express this opinion?
In order to develop the knowledge and vision of things as they really...


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el277.html


So that's a no.

A sutta is taken from the Nikayas... not from from another's ideas... no matter how respected the monk is.

Vipassana does not have Jhana. How can you contemplate Dhamma if you do not have Vitakka and Vicara?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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confusedlayman
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by confusedlayman »

BrokenBones wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:23 am
confusedlayman wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 6:16 pm
frank k wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 4:33 pm

but not at the same time.
And that causes huge problems with how monastics do their main practice.
I've spend 10 years in that Vism. system and have witnessed hundreds, if not thousands of earnest diligent meditators suffering needlessly because they're following a misguided approach.
They spend years chasing a pure samatha, while neglecting the vipassana that would happen organically, holistically, and simultaneously with developing jhanas according to the EBT suttas.
Even in ebt u need to emerge and do vipasanna
Can you point to suttas that express this opinion?
Will is lost in 2nd jhana... perception is unified in 4th jhana
So meditator ahld come to access and do... in some suttas emerging from 4th jhana is used if my memory is good
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Ratnakar
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by Ratnakar »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 11:49 am
Ratnakar wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 4:05 am
confusedlayman wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 6:16 pm
Even in ebt u need to emerge and do vipasanna
So one does vippassana only in access not in jhana, doesn't one ?
Post jhana acceess not pre jhana access... after deep jhana may be level 4 (as everyone says) then back to 3, 2 , 1 and then to post jhana access.. since meditator stayed in 4th jhana for some time and came to access his mental faculty will be very sharp and mallible
Could you quote the visuddhimagga where buddhaghosa said in post jhana access not pre jhana access one does vippassana ?
BrokenBones
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by BrokenBones »

Ratnakar wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 12:28 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 11:49 am
Ratnakar wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 4:05 am
So one does vippassana only in access not in jhana, doesn't one ?
Post jhana acceess not pre jhana access... after deep jhana may be level 4 (as everyone says) then back to 3, 2 , 1 and then to post jhana access.. since meditator stayed in 4th jhana for some time and came to access his mental faculty will be very sharp and mallible
Could you quote the visuddhimagga where buddhaghosa said in post jhana access not pre jhana access one does vippassana ?
That's the ticket... it's not in the suttas... but the visuddhimagga knows best 😑
Ratnakar
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by Ratnakar »

BrokenBones wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:07 pm
Ratnakar wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 12:28 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 11:49 am

Post jhana acceess not pre jhana access... after deep jhana may be level 4 (as everyone says) then back to 3, 2 , 1 and then to post jhana access.. since meditator stayed in 4th jhana for some time and came to access his mental faculty will be very sharp and mallible
Could you quote the visuddhimagga where buddhaghosa said in post jhana access not pre jhana access one does vippassana ?
That's the ticket... it's not in the suttas... but the visuddhimagga knows best 😑
Friend, the visuddhimagga is more complete than suttas, furthermore buddhaghosa knows pali better than us, furthermore there's no room for implicit assumption in visuddhimagga unlike the suttas
auto
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by auto »

visuddhimagga,

there are many instances how one is purified(attain nibbana), which are listed on the first chapter. Also there are differences in who attains what as an example: cessation* is not attainable for insight meditator..
pdf p66 wrote:Blessed One said:
“When a wise man, established well in virtue,
Develops consciousness and understanding,
Then as a bhikkhu ardent and sagacious
He succeeds in disentangling this tangle.”
..
But the words ardent and sagacious mean that by
persevering with energy of the kind here described and by acting in full awareness
with understanding he should, having become well established in virtue, develop
the serenity and insight that are described as concentration and understanding.
pdf p489 wrote:1. [436] Now, concentration was described under the heading of consciousness
in the stanza:
When a wise man, established well in virtue,
Develops consciousness and understanding (I.1).
And that has been developed in all its aspects by the bhikkhu who is thus
possessed of the more advanced development of concentration that has acquired
with direct-knowledge the benefits [described in Chs. XII and XIII]. But
understanding comes next and that has still to be developed.
you got to be virtue purified before concentration
pdf p139 wrote:1. [84] Now, concentration is described under the heading of “consciousness” in
the phrase “develops consciousness and understanding” (I.1). It should be
developed by one who has taken his stand on virtue that has been purified by
means of the special qualities of fewness of wishes, etc., and perfected by observance
of the ascetic practices.
*
18. Herein, (i) What is the attainment of cessation? It is the non-occurrence of
consciousness and its concomitants owing to their progressive cessation.
tranquilizing the effort(is the fruition attainment), also can find how path fruit differ from each other based on tranquilization level.
pdf p789 wrote:“How is it that understanding of the tranquilizing of
effort is knowledge of fruit? At the moment of the stream-entry path right view in
the sense of seeing emerges from wrong view, and it emerges from the defilements
and from the aggregates that occur consequent upon that [wrong view], and
externally it emerges from all signs. Right view arises because of the tranquilizing
of that effort. This is the fruit of the path” (Paþis I 71), and this should be given in
detail. Also such passages as, “The four paths and the four fruits—these states
have a measureless object” (Dhs §1408), and, “An exalted state is a condition, as
proximity condition, for a measureless state” (Paþþh II 227 (Be)), establish the
meaning here.
..
6. Herein, (i) What is fruition attainment? It is absorption in the cessation in
which the noble fruition consists.
BrokenBones
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by BrokenBones »

Ratnakar wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 2:35 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:07 pm
Ratnakar wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 12:28 pm
Could you quote the visuddhimagga where buddhaghosa said in post jhana access not pre jhana access one does vippassana ?
That's the ticket... it's not in the suttas... but the visuddhimagga knows best 😑
Friend, the visuddhimagga is more complete than suttas, furthermore buddhaghosa knows pali better than us, furthermore there's no room for implicit assumption in visuddhimagga unlike the suttas
And this is what the Buddha's Dhamma has been reduced to... Buddhaghosaism... no thanks... it's all yours.
Ratnakar
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by Ratnakar »

BrokenBones wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 11:47 pm
Ratnakar wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 2:35 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:07 pm

That's the ticket... it's not in the suttas... but the visuddhimagga knows best 😑
Friend, the visuddhimagga is more complete than suttas, furthermore buddhaghosa knows pali better than us, furthermore there's no room for implicit assumption in visuddhimagga unlike the suttas
And this is what the Buddha's Dhamma has been reduced to... Buddhaghosaism... no thanks... it's all yours.
Friend, what did you critize from buddhaghosa ? If you argued suttas was more complete than visuddhimagga then may I ask you where's the instruction to do physic power in suttas ? Furthermore to think that all those 6000 suttas already covered buddha's words was too optimistic, buddha spoke more words than that in his 40 years of dhamma teaching and some of his words was preserved in commentaries

Obviously there are something that need not be taught explicitly because brahmins at that time knowed even implicitly what the Buddha said, these things then need to be taught explicitly because people and society changes due to age and time and buddhism enters new region that doesn't know the context of the original implicit teaching

Furthermore when you quote a sutta and make an assumption based on it you are already making a commentary, the difference between your assumption and buddhaghosa's assumption is yours was 2021 years after buddha's parinibbana while buddhaghosas' was only 1000 years, this means buddhaghosa had more context about medieval India more than any modern thinker

Furthermore your assumption was made based on English but buddhaghosas' was made based on pali, you can't even read pali but buddhaghosa not only he can read pali he can even write pali

Furthermore there might be some late suttas that were not available to buddhaghosa but are available to us contributing the difference between our assumption and buddhaghosas'

Of course friend, buddhaghosa is not perfect that too assuming he is not an arahant but the same argument applies to us too we are even more vulnerable than him in interpreting suttas
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Ratnakar wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 2:08 am ...

Obviously there are something that need not be taught explicitly because brahmins at that time knowed even implicitly what the Buddha said, these things then need to be taught explicitly because people and society changes due to age and time and buddhism enters new region that doesn't know the context of the original implicit teaching

Furthermore when you quote a sutta and make an assumption based on it you are already making a commentary, the difference between your assumption and buddhaghosa's assumption is yours was 2021 years after buddha's parinibbana while buddhaghosas' was only 1000 years, this means buddhaghosa had more context about medieval India more than any modern thinker

...

Furthermore there might be some late suttas that were not available to buddhaghosa but are available to us contributing the difference between our assumption and buddhaghosas'

Of course friend, buddhaghosa is not perfect that too assuming he is not an arahant but the same argument applies to us too we are even more vulnerable than him in interpreting suttas

:goodpost:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
Ratnakar
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by Ratnakar »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 3:31 am
Ratnakar wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 2:08 am ...

Obviously there are something that need not be taught explicitly because brahmins at that time knowed even implicitly what the Buddha said, these things then need to be taught explicitly because people and society changes due to age and time and buddhism enters new region that doesn't know the context of the original implicit teaching

Furthermore when you quote a sutta and make an assumption based on it you are already making a commentary, the difference between your assumption and buddhaghosa's assumption is yours was 2021 years after buddha's parinibbana while buddhaghosas' was only 1000 years, this means buddhaghosa had more context about medieval India more than any modern thinker

...

Furthermore there might be some late suttas that were not available to buddhaghosa but are available to us contributing the difference between our assumption and buddhaghosas'

Of course friend, buddhaghosa is not perfect that too assuming he is not an arahant but the same argument applies to us too we are even more vulnerable than him in interpreting suttas

:goodpost:
Thanks friend 🙏🙏, I want to know your opinion too, do you think one can do vippassana while in access and do you think for one who can only attain access they can attain arahantship ?

Whatever your claim is please back it with a visuddhimagga quote friend
BrokenBones
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by BrokenBones »

Ratnakar wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 2:08 am
BrokenBones wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 11:47 pm
Ratnakar wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 2:35 pm
Friend, the visuddhimagga is more complete than suttas, furthermore buddhaghosa knows pali better than us, furthermore there's no room for implicit assumption in visuddhimagga unlike the suttas
And this is what the Buddha's Dhamma has been reduced to... Buddhaghosaism... no thanks... it's all yours.
Friend, what did you critize from buddhaghosa ? If you argued suttas was more complete than visuddhimagga then may I ask you where's the instruction to do physic power in suttas ? Furthermore to think that all those 6000 suttas already covered buddha's words was too optimistic, buddha spoke more words than that in his 40 years of dhamma teaching and some of his words was preserved in commentaries

Obviously there are something that need not be taught explicitly because brahmins at that time knowed even implicitly what the Buddha said, these things then need to be taught explicitly because people and society changes due to age and time and buddhism enters new region that doesn't know the context of the original implicit teaching

Furthermore when you quote a sutta and make an assumption based on it you are already making a commentary, the difference between your assumption and buddhaghosa's assumption is yours was 2021 years after buddha's parinibbana while buddhaghosas' was only 1000 years, this means buddhaghosa had more context about medieval India more than any modern thinker

Furthermore your assumption was made based on English but buddhaghosas' was made based on pali, you can't even read pali but buddhaghosa not only he can read pali he can even write pali

Furthermore there might be some late suttas that were not available to buddhaghosa but are available to us contributing the difference between our assumption and buddhaghosas'

Of course friend, buddhaghosa is not perfect that too assuming he is not an arahant but the same argument applies to us too we are even more vulnerable than him in interpreting suttas
So psychic powers are important?

As for the suttas... you would rather adhere to a dubious commentary that constantly gets it wrong or makes outrageous statements over the collected words of the Buddha... that's cool... but it seems you value Buddhaghosa more than the suttas.

I would rather take my own understanding of the suttas than Buddhaghosa. The suttas are to be practiced/experienced... if these teachings are not understood it is worthless. One has to ask... are wholesome states growing or diminishing... if they're growing then your understanding is correct... who cares what a commentary written centuries after the Buddha said... if it contradicts the suttas it's not Dhamma... if it coincides with the suttas... it's Dhamma.
Ratnakar
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Re: first jhana really can be this easy (35 sec. video demonstration)

Post by Ratnakar »

BrokenBones wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 10:41 am
Ratnakar wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 2:08 am
BrokenBones wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 11:47 pm

And this is what the Buddha's Dhamma has been reduced to... Buddhaghosaism... no thanks... it's all yours.
Friend, what did you critize from buddhaghosa ? If you argued suttas was more complete than visuddhimagga then may I ask you where's the instruction to do physic power in suttas ? Furthermore to think that all those 6000 suttas already covered buddha's words was too optimistic, buddha spoke more words than that in his 40 years of dhamma teaching and some of his words was preserved in commentaries

Obviously there are something that need not be taught explicitly because brahmins at that time knowed even implicitly what the Buddha said, these things then need to be taught explicitly because people and society changes due to age and time and buddhism enters new region that doesn't know the context of the original implicit teaching

Furthermore when you quote a sutta and make an assumption based on it you are already making a commentary, the difference between your assumption and buddhaghosa's assumption is yours was 2021 years after buddha's parinibbana while buddhaghosas' was only 1000 years, this means buddhaghosa had more context about medieval India more than any modern thinker

Furthermore your assumption was made based on English but buddhaghosas' was made based on pali, you can't even read pali but buddhaghosa not only he can read pali he can even write pali

Furthermore there might be some late suttas that were not available to buddhaghosa but are available to us contributing the difference between our assumption and buddhaghosas'

Of course friend, buddhaghosa is not perfect that too assuming he is not an arahant but the same argument applies to us too we are even more vulnerable than him in interpreting suttas
So psychic powers are important?

As for the suttas... you would rather adhere to a dubious commentary that constantly gets it wrong or makes outrageous statements over the collected words of the Buddha... that's cool... but it seems you value Buddhaghosa more than the suttas.

I would rather take my own understanding of the suttas than Buddhaghosa. The suttas are to be practiced/experienced... if these teachings are not understood it is worthless. One has to ask... are wholesome states growing or diminishing... if they're growing then your understanding is correct... who cares what a commentary written centuries after the Buddha said... if it contradicts the suttas it's not Dhamma... if it coincides with the suttas... it's Dhamma.
friend, let's agree on this, there were many conflicting suttas and we need commentary like visuddhimagga to know which sutta it sided with

Furthermore You should not reject a source because of initial prejudice, you can get knowledges even from a child let alone visuddhimagga

What we have now friend is not visuddhimagga but something worse like culadasa's the mind illuminated,pali sub-commentaries, yoga sutras patanjali and blog of meditators explaining their meditation experiences these things are all younger than visuddhimagga or they are not in pali

What's worse friend is condemning what you don't fully know, here you critized visuddhimagga but you never read it fully and even though you found something problematic with visuddhimagga you need to check the pali maybe bhante nanamoli made the mistake not buddhaghosa
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