Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
ToVincent
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

Post by ToVincent »

Some people don't understand, that I am not a sectarian, and therefore do not "require" anything from them.
When I say "lazy", I just mean "superficial" — and I'm not"requiring" (commanding) any additional mandatory exertion on their part.
Just expecting a less self-pleasing, dilettante job.

________

The PTS is far from being complete, as far as the historical lexicography is concerned.

And yes, I understand what a word means simply by breaking it down into it's roots.
I do ! - particularly when there is no other alternative.
However, I avoid to go as far as the Indo-European roots — for that would be a bit too distant, from a historical etymology point of view — which I think is pretentiously ludicrous, in people who are not versed in the matter — like a metoometoo who has just seen someone doing it.

Now, with a complete and accurate PTS, we could see that anidassana and appamāṇa, have to do with nondual non-manifestation (√ dṛś) , and non-display (√ mā).
As one transcends each āyatanāni, he sees the non-display and non-manifestation of these āyatanāni — having the insight, from knowledge according to what have become (yathābhūtañāṇadassana).

For instance - one has a non-dual, "clear vision in his citta" (kasiṇa,) of the raw (āmeko) earth; from the viññāṇa nidāna (above) to the namārupa nidāna (below) — and across the all process*. That is to say that one sees "according to how things" have come to be (yathābhūta).
*Space being in between - as it is said in the Chandogya Upanishad, that space is the revealer of name and form..

Note again that the dual display, occurs in the (dual) saḷāyatana nidāna, as a nimitta (from √ mā also).
Nimitta being the actual display through the dual senses. An actual expression/manifestation.
_______

People think whatever they want, with the meanings they want.
I "require" nothing for that matter either.

I am not inventing new meanings either — they are already there, in the pre-Buddhist literature.
.
.
Last edited by ToVincent on Sat May 22, 2021 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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frank k
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

Post by frank k »

Ratnakar wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 3:36 am
frank k wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 4:55 pm https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... asure.html
Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!
Could you quote the parts of visuddhimagga which you agree and disagree with sir ?

Thanks 🙏
I explain with detailed audit the parts of VRJ (vism. redefinition of jhana) that contradict sutta here:

https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/ ... index.html

occasionally Vism. has nice little bits that do agree with the suttas, such as the simile of seeing the oasis in teh desert is piti, actually drinking the water is sukha,
but it's hard to know where Buddhaghosa stands because he'll present several contradictory positions (such as piti being mental, then being physical), without taking a position.
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auto
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

Post by auto »

Pondera wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 5:10 am The ten kasiṇa: The word kasiṇa means “whole” or “totality.” It is so called because the counterpart sign is to be expanded and extended everywhere without limitation. - Abhidhammattha-saṅgaha


Sure. It extends and expands everywhere without limit. But it does so without any need for a counterpart sign.

A totality, by definition, is already “boundless” in nature. It does not rely on a sign formed in the mind to have that qualify. It is, by nature, boundless and endless by virtue of physical (or fine material) quality.
extending means you extend the counterpart sign by accordingly to acquiring of it till it reaches jhana,
pdf 180 wrote:34. The arousing of the counterpart sign, which arises together with access
concentration, is very difficult. Therefore if he is able to arrive at absorption
in that same session by extending the sign, it is good.
extending, it means going bit by bit accordingly as acquired till jhana is reached.
pdf 203 wrote:In order to perfect the development of consciousness he should besides extend
the counterpart sign according as acquired.
..he can extend it up to the limit of the worldsphere
or even beyond.
129. Then that sign [appears] to him like an ox hide stretched out with a
hundred pegs39 over the earth’s ridges and hollows, river ravines, tracts of scrub
and thorns, and rocky inequalities (see M III 105) in any area to which it has been extended.
..
When a beginner has reached the first jhána in this sign, he should enter
upon it often without reviewing it much. For the first jhána factors occur crudely
and weakly in one who reviews it much.
when extending the counterpart sign and it reaches jhana, then after emerging from jhana one adverts to the jhana factor which consequently interrupts the lifecontinuum and then the impulsion(javana) will impel 4, 5 impulsions having that jhana factor as object. Entailing then two life continuum consciousnesses and then there is adverting with the jhana factor which is followed by the impulsions again, this will prolong conscious process uninterruptedly.
notice the sequence,
pdf 205 wrote:131. Therefore he should acquire mastery in the five ways first of all with
respect to the first jhána. Herein, these are the five kinds of mastery:
mastery in
adverting,
mastery in attaining,
mastery in resolving (steadying the duration),
mastery in emerging,
and mastery in reviewing.

132. The explanation of the meaning here is this. When he emerges from the
first jhána and first of all adverts to the applied thought, then, next to the
adverting that arose interrupting the life-continuum, either four or five impulsions
impel with that applied thought as their object. Then there are two life-continuum
[consciousnesses]. Then there is adverting with the sustained thought as its
object and followed by impulsions in the way just stated.
When he is able to
prolong his conscious process uninterruptedly in this way with the five jhána
factors, then his mastery of adverting is successful.
duration,
pdf 205 wrote:134. Ability to remain in jhána for a moment consisting in exactly a fingersnap
or exactly ten finger-snaps is called mastery in resolving (steadying the
duration).
the time spent on jhana depends on that profitable impulsion
pdf 180 wrote:It
is because they are strong that when absorption concentration has arisen, the
mind, having once interrupted the flow of the life-continuum, carries on with a
stream of profitable impulsion for a whole night and for a whole day, just as a
healthy man, after rising from his seat, could stand for a whole day.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

Post by Ceisiwr »

ToVincent wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 2:34 pm
The PTS is far from being complete, as far as the historical lexicography is concerned.
You are not an "historical lexicographer", so stop posturing.
And yes, I understand what a word means simply by breaking it down into it's roots.
No, you can't because simply looking at the root does not tell you how the word was actually used. For that you need some context. If you took the word "vīthi" and broke it down you would get:

√ [ vī ] - to go , approach , (either as a friend i.e. " seek or take eagerly , grasp , seize , accept , enjoy " , or as an enemy i.e. " fall upon , attack , assail , visit , punish , avenge " ) Lit. RV. Lit. AV. Lit. TS. Lit. Br. ; to set in motion , arouse , excite , impel Lit. RV. ; to further , promote , lead or bring or help any one to ( two acc.) Lit. ib. ; to get , procure Lit. ib

If you looked at how vīthi was used in Sanskrit literature you would get:
  • a road , way , street Lit. MBh. Lit. Kāv.

    a race-course Lit. Śiś. v , 60

    a market , stall , shop Lit. ib. ix. 32

    a row of pictures , pictures-gallery Lit. Uttarar. (v.l. [ vīthikā ] )

    a partic. division of the planetary sphere (comprising 3 asterisms) Lit. VarBṛS.

    a terrace in front of a house Lit. L.

    a sort of drama (having an amatory intrigue for its plot and said to be in one act and performed by one or two players) Lit. Bhar. Lit. Daśar.
If you look at how vīthi is used in the Abhidhamma commentaries it means "process", specifically in relation to cognition. So no, simply breaking the word down into roots doesn't tell you what it means. You have to look at context. In how it is actually used. Returning then to appamāṇa we find this:

When a mendicant enters and remains in a limitless immersion of heart while eating alms-food, the overflowing of merit for the donor is limitless …
Yassa, bhikkhave, bhikkhu piṇḍapātaṁ paribhuñjamāno appamāṇaṁ cetosamādhiṁ upasampajja viharati, appamāṇo tassa puññābhisando kusalābhisando sukhassāhāro sovaggiko sukhavipāko saggasaṁvattaniko iṭṭhāya kantāya manāpāya hitāya sukhāya saṁvattati.


https://suttacentral.net/an4.51/en/sujato

Which makes more sense than:

"When a mendicant enters and remains in a limitless immersion of heart while eating alms-food, the overflowing of merit for the donor is unexhibited/undisplayed"

Once again you have shown your tendency to reject commonly understood definitions of Pāli words (a language that under your other alias of cobwith you admitted to knowing hardly anything about some 2-3 years ago) in favour of your own personal definitions which, quite frankly, stretch the meaning of the word beyond what is plausible given the textual context. This is, again, simply you re-inventing the wheel with yourself as the only authority. This is a poor approach to Dhamma.
I am not inventing new meanings either — they are already there, in the pre-Buddhist literature.
When you start to redefine even basic words like "anatta" then I'm afraid yes, you are. You are no different from the PureDhamma fools at this stage.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
ToVincent
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

Post by ToVincent »

Say to Metoomeeto "stop pretending" — and Metoometoo will answer "stop posturing".
Why?
Because Metoometoo is forever a metoometoo.
Metoometoo is the class, of the metoomeetos' instances.

I'm not a historical lexicographer. I'm dealing with historical lexicography.
Nuance
I might say that I am more a lexicographer, than a grammarian - but that would be a figure of speech.

And I don't take lessons about Sanskrit/Pali roots, from someone who lately, gave me lessons, on how I don't go far enough into Indo-European roots.
Holly cow! ?!?!?!©

Now Metoometoo might be happy with his interpretation derived from the root krtsna, instead of kāś (kāś - i - ṇa) — and I'm happy that Metoometoo is happy about that.

_________

And I'm not inventing new meanings either.
.
.
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Pondera
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 11:10 am
I'm merely point out that according to Orthodox Theravāda what you have argued for in the past does not meet the criteria for Jhāna, which can take years of practice in conjunction with the sense restraint of at least the 8 precepts. Naturally I think the orthodox position is fully in line with the suttas here. A long while back you wrote this:
I may have also, subconsciously, joined this forum to redefine jhana in my own terms,


viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9312&p=143813#p143813

I wonder how much of that is true today?
🧐 well if I am redefining jhana in my own terms, I am confident (for example) that my “definition” aligns completely with examples and instructions we find in (for example) the Jhana Sutta and the Upanisa Sutta.

We are both pushing our own versions of jhana. We are both maintaining that our positions are in line with the suttas.

Whereas you have introduced Abhidhamma into the discussion - I have felt no need to do that.

That may be one underlying difference between us.
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Ratnakar
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

Post by Ratnakar »

frank k wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 3:03 pm
Ratnakar wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 3:36 am
frank k wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 4:55 pm https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... asure.html
Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!
Could you quote the parts of visuddhimagga which you agree and disagree with sir ?

Thanks 🙏
I explain with detailed audit the parts of VRJ (vism. redefinition of jhana) that contradict sutta here:

https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/ ... index.html

occasionally Vism. has nice little bits that do agree with the suttas, such as the simile of seeing the oasis in teh desert is piti, actually drinking the water is sukha,
but it's hard to know where Buddhaghosa stands because he'll present several contradictory positions (such as piti being mental, then being physical), without taking a position.
Have you done the pali analysis by yourself ? maybe it's nananoli that made the mistakes not buddhaghosa

I think you could also quote vism-mht to clear those contradictions after knowing that it's buddhaghosa not nanamoli that made the mistakes
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

Post by frank k »

Ratnakar wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 3:20 pm ...
Have you done the pali analysis by yourself ? maybe it's nananoli that made the mistakes not buddhaghosa

I think you could also quote vism-mht to clear those contradictions after knowing that it's buddhaghosa not nanamoli that made the mistakes
What part do you doubt? If you cite a specific section, I'll go look at the pali.
Even if Nanamoli made some mistakes, it's hard to see how he can be so far off, to make Vism. Jhana into a completely different meditation system.
I have looked at the Abhidhamma Vibhanga jhana gloss in pali extensively, so the basis is there for VRJ (vism. redefintion of jhana) to redefine body as "mind", and I have looked at the pali where vism. redefines vitakka and vicara as "not thinking and gluing the mind to nimitta intead of exploring discursive thought".
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

Post by Ceisiwr »

Ratnakar wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 3:20 pm
I think you could also quote vism-mht to clear those contradictions after knowing that it's buddhaghosa not nanamoli that made the mistakes
There are no contradictions. The only mistakes are Frank’s.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Ratnakar
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

Post by Ratnakar »

frank k wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 3:39 pm
Ratnakar wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 3:20 pm ...
Have you done the pali analysis by yourself ? maybe it's nananoli that made the mistakes not buddhaghosa

I think you could also quote vism-mht to clear those contradictions after knowing that it's buddhaghosa not nanamoli that made the mistakes
What part do you doubt? If you cite a specific section, I'll go look at the pali.
Even if Nanamoli made some mistakes, it's hard to see how he can be so far off, to make Vism. Jhana into a completely different meditation system.
I have looked at the Abhidhamma Vibhanga jhana gloss in pali extensively, so the basis is there for VRJ (vism. redefintion of jhana) to redefine body as "mind", and I have looked at the pali where vism. redefines vitakka and vicara as "not thinking and gluing the mind to nimitta intead of exploring discursive thought".
I think buddhaghosa means that perception of sound is already suppressed in first jhana and greed for sound is completely abandoned in immaterial attainments, there's no contradiction, sound is a thorn because there's still greed for sound in jhanas nevertheless you should not focus on jhana because even momentary-concentration is enough to attain enlightenment, jhana is not important,cultivating jhana is a waste of time if your primary goal is enlightenment not physic power

but again what's the importance of physic power compared to the eradication of suffering sir ?

Remember that we have shed more blood than the oceans this is how long we have suffered from the beginningless time as cows and others
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

Post by auto »

https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/ebt-vs-vism/index.html wrote:Vism. redefines "entire" (non-physical) body as a temporal fixity of a point near the nostrils where breath strikes the skin. That is, one is to be mindful of breath continuously from beginning, middle, end, of each cycle with no gaps of unmindfulness in between.
it is the sign of in and out breath what is not to be extended but has definite position for the absorption.
And it is so because of the method of development,
Visuddhimagga p330 wrote:189. Here are the stages in giving attention to it: (1) counting, (2) connection,
(3) touching, (4) fixing, (5) observing, (6) turning away, (7) purification, and (8)
looking back on these.

Herein, counting is just counting, connection is carrying on, touching is the
place touched [by the breaths], fixing is absorption, observing is insight, turning
away is the path, purification is fruition, looking back on these is reviewing.
What you talk about in the second sentence is connection, which has specific reasons why focus is held on single position, it's for not to be getting distracted and it is a stage what has concentration, namely the attention is given by touching and fixing(concentration)
p331 wrote:For
counting is simply a device for setting mindfulness on the in-breaths and outbreaths
as object by cutting off the external dissipation of applied thoughts.
.
The navel is the beginning of the wind issuing out, the heart is its middle
and the nose-tip is its end. The nose-tip is the beginning of the wind entering in,
the heart is its middle and the navel is its end. And if he follows after that, his
mind is distracted by disquiet and perturbation according as it is said: “When
he goes in with mindfulness after the beginning, middle, and end of the inbreath,
his mind being distracted internally, both his body and his mind are
disquieted and perturbed and shaky. When he goes out with mindfulness after
the beginning, middle and end of the out-breath, his mind being distracted
externally, both his body and his mind are disquieted and perturbed and shaky”
(Paþis I 165).
.
3–4. So when he gives his attention to it by connection, he should do so not by
the beginning, middle and end, but rather by touching and by fixing.

198. There is no attention to be given to it by touching separate from fixing as
there is by counting separate from connection.
..
When he has given up counting and is connecting them by
means of mindfulness in that same place and fixing consciousness by means of
absorption, then he is said to be giving his attention to them by connection,
touching and fixing.
The main point is about not getting distracted but still knowing sign, in and out breaths. Also that, after the applied thoughts are given up the attention is given by touching and fixing.
p332 wrote:202. “How is it that these three things are not the object of a single
consciousness, that they are nevertheless not unknown, that the mind does not
become distracted, that he manifests effort, carries out a task, and achieves an
effect?
notice how one has absorption and still knows body formations.

you have that 8 stages quoted btw in your blog.
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

Post by auto »

Sutta itself refers piti and sukha as cittasankhara.
https://suttacentral.net/mn118/en/sujato wrote: They practice breathing in experiencing rapture. They practice breathing out experiencing rapture.
‘Pītipaṭisaṁvedī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘pītipaṭisaṁvedī passasissāmī’ti sikkhati;
They practice breathing in experiencing bliss. They practice breathing out experiencing bliss.
‘sukhapaṭisaṁvedī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘sukhapaṭisaṁvedī passasissāmī’ti sikkhati;
They practice breathing in experiencing these emotions. They practice breathing out experiencing these emotions.
‘cittasaṅkhārapaṭisaṁvedī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘cittasaṅkhārapaṭisaṁvedī passasissāmī’ti sikkhati;
They practice breathing in stilling these emotions. They practice breathing out stilling these emotions.
‘passambhayaṁ cittasaṅkhāraṁ assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘passambhayaṁ cittasaṅkhāraṁ passasissāmī’ti sikkhati.
experiences pleasure due mindfulness developed to the point concentration is achieved etc.
“sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṃvedetī”ti - just is too short(condensed) for you, you better not look at gatha's since they have entire Sutras in four lines.
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/ebt-vs-vism/index.html wrote:THOX redefines sukha as all mental factors
abhidhamma book 2 vibhanga 12
3rd jhana formula gloss
♦ 587. “sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṃvedetī”ti
“Experiences pleasure by way of the body (of mental aggregates)”
tattha katamaṃ sukhaṃ?
means: Therein what is pleasure?
yaṃ cetasikaṃ sātaṃ
That which is mental ease,
cetasikaṃ sukhaṃ
mental pleasure,
cetosamphassajaṃ sātaṃ sukhaṃ vedayitaṃ
easeful pleasant experience born of mental contact,
cetosamphassajā sātā sukhā vedanā —
easeful pleasant feeling born of mental contact.
idaṃ vuccati “sukhaṃ”.
This is called pleasure.
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

Post by auto »

https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/ebt-vs-vism/index.html wrote:fourth jhāna gloss, watch sukha
♦ 594. “sukhassa ca pahānā dukkhassa ca pahānā”ti, atthi sukhaṃ, atthi dukkhaṃ.
“By the abandoning of pleasure and by the abandoning of pain” means: There is pleasure; there is pain.
♦ tattha katamaṃ sukhaṃ? yaṃ kāyikaṃ sātaṃ kāyikaṃ sukhaṃ kāyasamphassajaṃ sātaṃ sukhaṃ vedayitaṃ kāyasamphassajā sātā sukhā vedanā — idaṃ vuccati “sukhaṃ”.
Therein what is pleasure? That which is bodily ease, bodily pleasure, easeful pleasant experience born of bodily contact, easeful pleasant feeling born of bodily contact. This is called pleasure.

Look at sukha carefully here. It follows the normal default understanding of sukha and dukkha vedana as bodily originated feeling and experience. So abhidhamma didn’t bother to redefine these into mental factors for fourth jhana, but this makes no sense! Sukha in first jhāna was redefine as mental only, so why would fourth jhana even need to mention a removal of sukha at all, unless it refers to sukha of third jhana? Perhaps THOX realized if it redefined sukha as all mental in fourth jhana, it would look especially ridiculous next to the somanassa which is already mental. But by doing so, they just create more contradiction and incoherence. A sure sign of fraudulent cooking of the books.
notice that the pleasure and pain, happiness and sadness are given up before one enters and remains in the 4th jhana.
https://suttacentral.net/sn40.4/en/sujato wrote:What is the fourth absorption?
Katamaṁ nu kho catutthaṁ jhānanti?
It occurred to me:
Tassa mayhaṁ, āvuso, etadahosi:
‘It’s when, giving up pleasure and pain, and ending former happiness and sadness, a mendicant enters and remains in the fourth absorption, without pleasure or pain, with pure equanimity and mindfulness.
‘idha bhikkhu sukhassa ca pahānā dukkhassa ca pahānā pubbeva somanassadomanassānaṁ atthaṅgamā adukkhamasukhaṁ upekkhāsatipārisuddhiṁ catutthaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

Post by auto »

thorn, it just takes one to use search function to know you are on same page with the OP since he uses same way.

no sound in 1st jhana is in context of perceptions of resistance, what arise through the impact of the physical base consisting of the eye ..
382 wrote:16. With the disappearance of perceptions of resistance: perceptions of resistance
are perceptions arisen through the impact of the physical base consisting of the
eye, etc., and the respective objects consisting of visible objects etc.; and this is a
term for perception of visible objects (rúpa) and so on, according as it is said:
“Here, what are perceptions of resistance? Perceptions of visible objects,
perceptions of sounds, perceptions of odours, perceptions of flavours, perceptions
of tangible objects—these are called ‘perceptions of resistance’” (Vibh 261);
with the complete disappearance, the abandoning, the non-arising, of these ten
kinds of perceptions of resistance, that is to say, of the five profitable-resultant
and five unprofitable-resultant;6 causing their non-occurrence, is what is meant.
.
17. Of course, these are not to be found in one who has entered upon the first
jhána, etc., either; for consciousness at that time does not occur by way of the five
doors.
As a sidenote to add to the previous post, the 4th jhana pleasure and pain are given up elsewhere(that didn't he notice on the making of abhidhamma insult, that is a minus side of using keywords and being antagonist on subject).
382 wrote: Still [330] the mention of them here should be understood as a
recommendation of this jhána for the purpose of arousing interest in it, just as in
the case of the fourth jhána there is mention of the pleasure and pain already
abandoned elsewhere,
meaning of thorn,
383 wrote:19. In fact it is because they have not been abandoned already before this that
it was said by the Blessed One that sound is a thorn to one who has the first
jhána (A V 135).
the sound isn't abandoned before attaining imperturbability
383 wrote:And it is precisely because they are abandoned here that the
imperturbability (see Vibh 135) of the immaterial attainments and their state of
peaceful liberation are mentioned (M I 33), and that Á¿ára Káláma neither saw
the five hundred carts that passed close by him nor heard the sound of them
while he was in an immaterial attainment (D II 130).
which the OP has also quoted in his blog.
which looks like he intentionally interprets falsely
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/ebt-vs-vism/index.html wrote:[CP]: That is a definitive statement that the mind is divorced from the sense faculties not just inside arūpa attainments, but also the rūpa attainments (all four jhanas, including first jhana). In EBT jhāna, it's possible for loud sounds to knock you out of the attainment, and it's possible to feel body pain and mosquito bites. In the THOX redefinition of Jhāna, that is not possible. Big contradiction.
OP is in shock by himself that he has been delusional about Vism all along due going with the rumors about jhana instead of reading a book, thinking it is teaching frozen jhana.
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/ebt-vs-vism/index.html wrote:But this part seems to agree with EBT that sound can knock you out of first jhāna
19.In fact it is because they have not been abandoned already before this that it was said by the Blessed One that sound is a thorn to one who has the first jhāna (A V 135). And it is precisely because they are abandoned here that the imperturbability (see Vibh 135) of the immaterial attainments and their state of peaceful liberation are mentioned (M I 33), and that Āḷāra Kālāma neither saw the five hundred carts that passed close by him nor heard the sound of them while he was in an immaterial attainment (D II 130).
[CP]: It seems to agree, but that would contradict Vism.'s own positiion from paragraph 17 right above which definitely states mind is divorced from five sense faculties. So this means the sound as a thorn in jhana is not a thorn, but a gate that can block you from attaining first jhana. Vism. frequently uses tactics like that where they ambiguously quote or paraphrase EBT passsages in a way that makes you think it supports the straightforward EBT interpretation, then they pull a bait and switch and deliver something else.
yet, he can't give up, so sour.

Has to insult Visuddhimagga with a sour tone, knowing it does mean something else what he originally thought it teaches. I guess that is what is called rude awakening, hopefully it is a shift one.
auto
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

Post by auto »

auto wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 4:07 pm ..
i were wrong in above post

perception of resistance,
p382 wrote:“Here, what are perceptions of resistance? Perceptions of visible objects,
perceptions of sounds, perceptions of odours, perceptions of flavours, perceptions
of tangible objects—these are called ‘perceptions of resistance’” (Vibh 261);
with the complete disappearance, the abandoning, the non-arising, of these ten
kinds of perceptions of resistance, that is to say, of the five profitable-resultant
and five unprofitable-resultant;6 causing their non-occurrence, is what is meant.
it doesn't mean the sound, sight through five doors ear, eye. It is a perception, for example a smell of a sea as a perception, when thinking about the sea.
p382 wrote:17. Of course, these are not to be found in one who has entered upon the first
jhána, etc., either; for consciousness at that time does not occur by way of the five
doors.
counterpart sign is signless. The perception of resistance is not found in 1st jhana.
Why it is mentioned that the sound is a thorn in 1st jhana is because to take interest in attaining 1st jhana, like: wow that's a decent state to be attained
p382 wrote:Still [330] the mention of them here should be understood as a
recommendation of this jhána for the purpose of arousing interest in it, just as in
the case of the fourth jhána there is mention of the pleasure and pain already
abandoned elsewhere, and in the case of the third path there is mention of the
[false] view of personality, etc., already abandoned earlier.
and interesting in this quote is that the limited space is omitted, i think the infinite space means the absence of space or non-occurrence of space
p379 wrote:“‘It is in virtue of matter that wielding of sticks,
wielding of knives, quarrels, brawls and disputes takes place; but that does not
exist at all in the immaterial state,’ and in this expectation he enters upon the
way to dispassion for only material things, for the fading and cessation of only
those” (M I 410); and he sees danger in it too through the thousand afflictions
beginning with eye disease. So, in order to surmount that, he enters upon the
fourth jhána in any one of the nine kasióas beginning with the earth kasióa and
omitting the limited-space kasióa.
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