Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

[frank k]

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... asure.html
Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

[Ceisiwr]

He is saying the exact same thing I said here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=40154

Which is the same conclusion as the Visuddhimagga, which you quote on your Fake News site:

175. Now, as to the clause he feels bliss with his body: here, although in one actually possessed of the third jhána there is no concern about feeling bliss, nevertheless he would feel the bliss associated with his mental body, and after emerging from the jhána he would also feel bliss since his material body would have been affected by the exceedingly superior matter originated by that bliss associated with the mental body.48 It is in order to point to this meaning that the words “he feels bliss with his body” are said.

It's a great feeling to find myself reaching the same conclusions as the ancient Theras, as expressed in the Aṭṭhakathā.

[auto]

He is saying the exact same thing I said here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=40154

Which is the same conclusion as the Visuddhimagga, which you quote on your Fake News site:

175. Now, as to the clause he feels bliss with his body: here, although in one actually possessed of the third jhána there is no concern about feeling bliss, nevertheless he would feel the bliss associated with his mental body, and after emerging from the jhána he would also feel bliss since his material body would have been affected by the exceedingly superior matter originated by that bliss associated with the mental body.48 It is in order to point to this meaning that the words “he feels bliss with his body” are said.

It's a great feeling to find myself reaching the same conclusions as the ancient Theras, as expressed in the Aṭṭhakathā.

what is mental body?

[Ceisiwr]

He is saying the exact same thing I said here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=40154

Which is the same conclusion as the Visuddhimagga, which you quote on your Fake News site:

175. Now, as to the clause he feels bliss with his body: here, although in one actually possessed of the third jhána there is no concern about feeling bliss, nevertheless he would feel the bliss associated with his mental body, and after emerging from the jhána he would also feel bliss since his material body would have been affected by the exceedingly superior matter originated by that bliss associated with the mental body.48 It is in order to point to this meaning that the words “he feels bliss with his body” are said.

It's a great feeling to find myself reaching the same conclusions as the ancient Theras, as expressed in the Aṭṭhakathā.

what is mental body?

The nāmakāya.

[auto]

The nāmakāya.

yes and what it is?

[Ceisiwr]

The nāmakāya.

yes and what it is?

In the Nettipakaraṇa is is the constituents of nāma + citta:

"Nāmakāyo nāma vedanā saññā cetanā cittaṁ phasso manasikāroti—ayaṁ nāmakāyoti" - Padaṭṭhānahāravibhaṅga (Ne 7)

On a sutta only basis it might just be the bodies of nāma: vedanā, saññā, cetanā, phasso and manasikāro.

[auto]

The nāmakāya.

yes and what it is?

In the Nettipakaraṇa is is the constituents of nāma + citta:

"Nāmakāyo nāma vedanā saññā cetanā cittaṁ phasso manasikāroti—ayaṁ nāmakāyoti" - Padaṭṭhānahāravibhaṅga (Ne 7)

On a sutta only basis it might just be the bodies of nāma: vedanā, saññā, cetanā, phasso and manasikāro.

Thanks

[Ceisiwr]

yes and what it is?

In the Nettipakaraṇa is is the constituents of nāma + citta:

"Nāmakāyo nāma vedanā saññā cetanā cittaṁ phasso manasikāroti—ayaṁ nāmakāyoti" - Padaṭṭhānahāravibhaṅga (Ne 7)

On a sutta only basis it might just be the bodies of nāma: vedanā, saññā, cetanā, phasso and manasikāro.

Thanks

You’re welcome.

[BrokenBones]

He is saying the exact same thing I said here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=40154

Which is the same conclusion as the Visuddhimagga, which you quote on your Fake News site:

175. Now, as to the clause he feels bliss with his body: here, although in one actually possessed of the third jhána there is no concern about feeling bliss, nevertheless he would feel the bliss associated with his mental body, and after emerging from the jhána he would also feel bliss since his material body would have been affected by the exceedingly superior matter originated by that bliss associated with the mental body.48 It is in order to point to this meaning that the words “he feels bliss with his body” are said.

It's a great feeling to find myself reaching the same conclusions as the ancient Theras, as expressed in the Aṭṭhakathā.

I can see that obfuscation has a long history.

What on earth is 'the exceedingly superior matter originated by that bliss...'?

Sounds a bit Vedic.

[Ceisiwr]

What on earth is 'the exceedingly superior matter originated by that bliss...'?

Sounds a bit Vedic.

I imagine it’s possibly to do with the Abhidhamma concept of matter generated by consciousness (cittasamuṭṭhāna-rūpa).

I can see that obfuscation has a long history.

It is consistent and in line with the suttas, which has been repeatedly explained to you.

[BrokenBones]

What on earth is 'the exceedingly superior matter originated by that bliss...'?

Sounds a bit Vedic.

I imagine it’s possibly to do with the Abhidhamma concept of matter generated by consciousness (cittasamuṭṭhāna-rūpa).

I can see that obfuscation has a long history.

It is consistent and in line with the suttas, which has been repeatedly explained to you.

In line with the suttas

Is that why you have to 'imagine' Abhidhamma concepts?

Is it this same Abhidhamma concept that gives the 'mental body' toes?

[Ceisiwr]

In line with the suttas

Yes, as has been repeatedly explained to you in great detail.

Is that why you have to 'imagine' Abhidhamma concepts?

I have no idea what this means?

Is it this same Abhidhamma concept that gives the 'mental body' toes?

That is your own childish misrepresentation, because you have no solid arguments. This is a recurring pattern.

[BrokenBones]

In line with the suttas

Yes, as has been repeatedly explained to you in great detail.

Is that why you have to 'imagine' Abhidhamma concepts?

I have no idea what this means?

Is it this same Abhidhamma concept that gives the 'mental body' toes?

That is your own childish misrepresentation, because you have no solid arguments. This is a recurring pattern.

You claim adherence to the suttas and then rope in Abhidhamma concepts for your argument.

A recurring pattern is your refusal to give a satisfactory explanation for the Jhana similes... they're very straightforward.

Childish? Perhaps... but the Buddha wasn't crafty or vague in his teachings... straightforward similes to convey straightforward teachings... so straightforward a 'child' could understand them.

[Pondera]

There is a mind made body which comes after perfecting the four jhanas.

Suppose there was a beryl gem that was naturally beautiful, eight-faceted, well-worked, transparent, clear, and unclouded, endowed with all good qualities. And it was strung with a thread of blue, yellow, red, white, or golden brown. And someone with good eyesight were to take it in their hand and examine it: ‘This beryl gem is naturally beautiful, eight-faceted, well-worked, transparent, clear, and unclouded, endowed with all good qualities. And it’s strung with a thread of blue, yellow, red, white, or golden brown.’

In the same way, when their mind has become immersed in samādhi like this—purified, bright, flawless, rid of corruptions, pliable, workable, steady, and imperturbable—they extend it and project it toward knowledge and vision. This pertains to their wisdom.

When their mind has become immersed in samādhi like this—purified, bright, flawless, rid of corruptions, pliable, workable, steady, and imperturbable—they extend it and project it toward the creation of a mind-made body. From this body they create another body, physical, mind-made, complete in all its various parts, not deficient in any faculty.

Suppose a person was to draw a reed out from its sheath. They’d think: ‘This is the reed, this is the sheath. The reed and the sheath are different things. The reed has been drawn out from the sheath.’ Or suppose a person was to draw a sword out from its scabbard. They’d think: ‘This is the sword, this is the scabbard. The sword and the scabbard are different things. The sword has been drawn out from the scabbard.’ Or suppose a person was to draw a snake out from its slough. They’d think: ‘This is the snake, this is the slough. The snake and the slough are different things. The snake has been drawn out from the slough.’

In the same way, when their mind has become immersed in samādhi like this—purified, bright, flawless, rid of corruptions, pliable, workable, steady, and imperturbable—they extend it and project it toward the creation of a mind-made body. This pertains to their wisdom.

https://suttacentral.net/dn10/en/sujato

That the Buddha might explicitly describe a mind made body here and, in other parts, refer to it without explicitly stating that it is not otherwise seems implausible.

The ordinary, and obvious conclusion is that kaya means body. The same physical body made of rupa. Just as one is in rupa jhana - one experiences rapture and pleasure with the rupa-kaya.

If it was otherwise, the Buddha would explicitly state it - just as he does later with the development of the psychic powers.

[BrokenBones]

There is a mind made body which comes after perfecting the four jhanas.

Suppose

https://suttacentral.net/dn10/en/sujato

That the Buddha might explicitly describe a mind made body here and, in other parts, refer to it without explicitly stating that it is not otherwise seems implausible.

The ordinary, and obvious conclusion is that kaya means body. The same physical body made of rupa. Just as one is in rupa jhana - one experiences rapture and pleasure with the rupa-kaya.

If it was otherwise, the Buddha would explicitly state it - just as he does later with the development of the psychic powers.

Well spotted.