Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pondera wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 1:45 am

On what basis, therefore, do you argue that it is MERELY conceptual?
In relation to that quote I was referring to concepts and rūpa. At the beginning I said that the attainment of infinite consciousness is one where a concept (paññatti) is being cognised, as with infinite space. I then retracted that position.
Do you know the meaning of “totality”??????! :rofl:
Yes.

The ten kasiṇa: The word kasiṇa means “whole” or “totality.” It is so called because the counterpart sign is to be expanded and extended everywhere without limitation. - Abhidhammattha-saṅgaha
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pondera wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 1:56 am
Have you never perceived the “consciousness totality”??? Do you not perceive the level of “reality” that it has??
No.
That’s funny. What would you know? What can you even barely comprehend about the level of suffering I’ve been through - and therefore the level of insight I have pursued?

You are sadly mistaken. You haven’t even breathed a breath of the level of suffering I endured for four years.

And it is WAY beyond your capacity to encapsulate the level of freedom I felt when that suffering met its end.
I have no idea what kind of suffering you have gone through, and I'm sorry to hear if it has been great. I doubt you have obtained the Jhāna or formless since we have very, very divergent views on what those states entail and how they are achieved. That said, if whatever meditation you do genuinely improves things for you then this is a good thing.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
BrokenBones
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 2:06 am [
I have no idea what kind of suffering you have gone through, and I'm sorry to hear if it has been great. I doubt you have obtained the Jhāna or formless since we have very, very divergent views on what those states entail and how they are achieved. That said, if whatever meditation you do genuinely improves things for you then this is a good thing.
Ditto.

👍
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 2:40 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 2:06 am [
I have no idea what kind of suffering you have gone through, and I'm sorry to hear if it has been great. I doubt you have obtained the Jhāna or formless since we have very, very divergent views on what those states entail and how they are achieved. That said, if whatever meditation you do genuinely improves things for you then this is a good thing.
Ditto.

👍
:group:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Ratnakar
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

Post by Ratnakar »

frank k wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 4:55 pm https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... asure.html
Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!
Could you quote the parts of visuddhimagga which you agree and disagree with sir ?

Thanks 🙏
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Pondera
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 2:06 am
Pondera wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 1:56 am
Have you never perceived the “consciousness totality”??? Do you not perceive the level of “reality” that it has??
No.
There is a reality of kasina consciousness to be observed.
That’s funny. What would you know? What can you even barely comprehend about the level of suffering I’ve been through - and therefore the level of insight I have pursued?

You are sadly mistaken. You haven’t even breathed a breath of the level of suffering I endured for four years.

And it is WAY beyond your capacity to encapsulate the level of freedom I felt when that suffering met its end.
I have no idea what kind of suffering you have gone through, and I'm sorry to hear if it has been great. I doubt you have obtained the Jhāna or formless since we have very, very divergent views on what those states entail and how they are achieved. That said, if whatever meditation you do genuinely improves things for you then this is a good thing.
For me, to find a “light jhana” that matches word for word and concept for concept and reality for reality with transcendental dependent origination would seem altogether unlikely if not for the fact that I HAVE discovered a path leading from faith; joy; rapture; tranquility; sukha; samadhi; knowledge and vision of things as they really are; disenchantment; dispassion; release; and knowledge and vision of release!

The fact that this path uncovers samma samadhi; samma knowledge; and samma liberation is altogether TOO coincidental to be random. And i, personally, take it to be not only liberating - but also liberating in the “right manner”.

So, I take offence at your accusation that I have not found the path. And I take offence that you would assume “hard jhana” is the only type of jhana leading to liberation. It’s not.

And quite frankly, I don’t really know what these hard jhana practitioners are doing stuck in their hard samadhi with their hard rapture and hard sukha.

I find it altogether contrary to the path as it seems to be (for them and you included) the outcome of meditation and not just another means to an end.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Pondera
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 2:01 am
Pondera wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 1:45 am

On what basis, therefore, do you argue that it is MERELY conceptual?
In relation to that quote I was referring to concepts and rūpa. At the beginning I said that the attainment of infinite consciousness is one where a concept (paññatti) is being cognised, as with infinite space. I then retracted that position.
Okay. Well. Believe me. The last thing I want for anyone is for them to retract a statement based on anything I say.

I’m 100% behind people believing in what they want to believe and I hope that, whatever your reasons for changing your mind, they are good and personal.
Do you know the meaning of “totality”??????! :rofl:
Yes.

The ten kasiṇa: The word kasiṇa means “whole” or “totality.” It is so called because the counterpart sign is to be expanded and extended everywhere without limitation. - Abhidhammattha-saṅgaha
Sure. It extends and expands everywhere without limit. But it does so without any need for a counterpart sign.

A totality, by definition, is already “boundless” in nature. It does not rely on a sign formed in the mind to have that qualify. It is, by nature, boundless and endless by virtue of physical (or fine material) quality.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

Post by Pondera »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 2:40 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 2:06 am [
I have no idea what kind of suffering you have gone through, and I'm sorry to hear if it has been great. I doubt you have obtained the Jhāna or formless since we have very, very divergent views on what those states entail and how they are achieved. That said, if whatever meditation you do genuinely improves things for you then this is a good thing.
Ditto.

👍
Hmm 🧐 and here I thought I had a supporter in this ongoing feud about “what jhana is”.

Really. When I suffered what I suffered - it was without measure. It transcended the boundaries of suffering. It put a limit in the boundaries of suffering. For me to suffer anymore than I did would have been a great “reach” by any capacity or definition. And so, I remained in that state for four solid years. Never changing. Always conscious of my state. Always concerned with “getting better”. Whereas some recluses are “unbound” - I was “utterly bound”. There is no better way of describing it. I was “in the grip”. Consciousness had seized upon consciousness utterly and finally.

When, after four years, I was loosened for that grip I began a spiritual journey. The outcome, two years later, being a dry insight full unbinding.

Since that time I have learned the gradual path. The path of transcendental dependent origination. And I have learned to duplicate the effects of that once extreme spiritual insight into a methodical, translatable, and replicative insight.

So, with slight disdain, I can thoroughly push aside the assumptions that I have not achieved “jhana”. I have not achieved “hard jhana”. And I do not aim for that. “Hard jhana” and nimittas that appear in the visual field leading to orgasmic ecstasy are no strangers to me. I know those well in dream/waking states. I Do not find them to be advantageous compared to the “light jhana” sequences I have developed.
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

Post by BrokenBones »

Pondera wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 5:26 am
BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 2:40 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 2:06 am [
I have no idea what kind of suffering you have gone through, and I'm sorry to hear if it has been great. I doubt you have obtained the Jhāna or formless since we have very, very divergent views on what those states entail and how they are achieved. That said, if whatever meditation you do genuinely improves things for you then this is a good thing.
Ditto.

👍
Hmm 🧐 and here I thought I had a supporter in this ongoing feud about “what jhana is”.

It's all good pondera... you do have a friend.

The trouble with trying to be witty is that you can cut yourself sometimes... and others... my bad.

:hug:
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Pondera
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

Post by Pondera »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 5:38 am
Pondera wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 5:26 am
BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 2:40 am

Ditto.

👍
Hmm 🧐 and here I thought I had a supporter in this ongoing feud about “what jhana is”.

It's all good pondera... you do have a friend.

The trouble with trying to be witty is that you can cut yourself sometimes... and others... my bad.

:hug:
No worries. To be fair, I did not see the humour. But thank you for making this clear. No worries.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

Post by ToVincent »

Kasiṇa:
kasiṇa = kāś - i - ṇa

kāś
- to shine brightly ŚBr
- to see clearly ŚBr

Maybe metoometoo, who thinks I'm "charming" — although he finds me a bit peksily and waywardly amateurish, when I use those Sanskrit roots to define more properly the meaning of a Pali word — maybe metoometoo will want to go further, by referencing an even earlier Indo-European root - as it seems to be his new habit.
Ambiguity and bad faith, do not seem to choke metoometoo - do they?


√ i
to see in one's mind ŚBr. ChUp

-ṇa
Forms neuter substantives.

---

Kāśi " the city of "light" " (aka Vārāṇasī (Banaras)).

---

Kasiṇa = "The whole" ?!?!?!©
Funny how logorrhoea can make some people say such interminable nonsense, on a misinterpreted meaning.

_____________________

now, isn't that "charming"
Sir, isn't that knowing
w/a wayward careless
backward glance

(As Morrison would say).
.
.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

Post by Ceisiwr »

ToVincent wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 8:56 am ...
Whilst roots are useful you can't arrive at the meaning of a word simply by breaking it down into it's roots. You also have to look at context and how the word is used.

"One person perceives the earth kasiṇa above, below, across, undivided, measureless..."
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pondera wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 5:05 am
For me, to find a “light jhana” that matches word for word and concept for concept and reality for reality with transcendental dependent origination would seem altogether unlikely if not for the fact that I HAVE discovered a path leading from faith; joy; rapture; tranquility; sukha; samadhi; knowledge and vision of things as they really are; disenchantment; dispassion; release; and knowledge and vision of release!

The fact that this path uncovers samma samadhi; samma knowledge; and samma liberation is altogether TOO coincidental to be random. And i, personally, take it to be not only liberating - but also liberating in the “right manner”.

So, I take offence at your accusation that I have not found the path. And I take offence that you would assume “hard jhana” is the only type of jhana leading to liberation. It’s not.

And quite frankly, I don’t really know what these hard jhana practitioners are doing stuck in their hard samadhi with their hard rapture and hard sukha.

I find it altogether contrary to the path as it seems to be (for them and you included) the outcome of meditation and not just another means to an end.
I'm merely point out that according to Orthodox Theravāda what you have argued for in the past does not meet the criteria for Jhāna, which can take years of practice in conjunction with the sense restraint of at least the 8 precepts. Naturally I think the orthodox position is fully in line with the suttas here. A long while back you wrote this:
I may have also, subconsciously, joined this forum to redefine jhana in my own terms,


viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9312&p=143813#p143813

I wonder how much of that is true today?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
ToVincent
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

Post by ToVincent »

People, please provide us with parallels for the often lazy particular extracts, that are usually without them.

___________

“Bhikkhus, there are these ten kasiṇa fields of experience.
What ten?
One person perceives the earth kasiṇa above, below, across, nondual, undisplayed/appamāṇa (unmanifested). One person perceives the water kasiṇa … the fire kasiṇa … the air kasiṇa … the blue kasiṇa … the yellow kasiṇa … the red kasiṇa … the white kasiṇa … the space kasiṇa … the consciousness kasiṇa above, below, across, nondual, undisplayed (unmanifested).
These are the ten kasiṇa bases.”

Dasayimāni, bhikkhave, kasiṇāyatanāni. Katamāni dasa? Pathavī­ka­siṇa­meko sañjānāti uddhaṃ adho tiriyaṃ advayaṃ appamāṇaṃ; āpokasiṇameko sañjānāti … pe … tejokasiṇameko sañjānāti … vāyokasiṇameko sañjānāti … nīlakasiṇameko sañjānāti … pītakasiṇameko sañjānāti … lohita­ka­siṇa­meko sañjānāti … odāta­kasiṇa­meko sañjānāti … ākāsa­kasiṇa­meko sañjānāti … viñ­ñā­ṇa­ka­siṇa­meko sañjānāti uddhaṃ adho tiriyaṃ advayaṃ appamāṇaṃ*. Imāni kho, bhikkhave, dasa kasiṇāyatanānī”ti.
AN 10.25
A somewhat parallel on the ten kasiṇā nonduality is in SA 109 (although not really addressing it the same way).
*Here appamāṇa does not mean "measureless" (Bodhi's translation - [from commentaries I suppose]) , but "unexhibited" , "undisplayed".

प्रमाण pramāṇa [act. pramā]
प्रमा pramā [obj. pramā]
प्रमा pramā [pra- √mā]

√ मा mā - pp. (mita)
- to show , display , exhibit RV.


NOTE:
Nimitta (manifestation/expression — also from √ mā, ) is often associated with anuvyañjana = a mark that causes to appear, to be manifest (usually by its attractiveveness).
It is through this mark that the nimitta (manifestation proper, ) is usually grasped.
It would be better, bhikkhus, for the eye faculty to be lacerated by a red-hot iron pin burning, blazing, and glowing, than for one to grasp the manifestation through the ornaments alongsid
, e in a form cognizable by the eye.
Varaṃ, bhikkhave, tattāya ayosalākāya ādittāya sampajjalitāya sajotibhūtāya cakkhundriyaṃ sampalimaṭṭhaṃ, na tveva cakkhuviññeyyesu rūpesu anubyañjanaso nimittaggāho.
SN 35.235



To be in the field of experience of a kasiṇa, is to see clearly with the (liberated) citta* the undisplayed, unmanifested mahābhūta — or such nāma kind of qualia (quale,) like red, yellow, etc., in the nāmarūpa nidāna — or the unmanifested space, or the unmanifested sense-consciousness (aka anidassana viññāṇa).
*That is to say, liberated FROM the ceto - (the polluted citta by mano (viz. manosañcetana) - aka ceto-vimutti
.
.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

Post by Ceisiwr »

ToVincent wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 11:44 am People, please provide us with parallels for the often lazy particular extracts, that are usually without them.
This isn't SuttaCentral. As such, I am not required to bring in parallels and neither can you demand them. Once again you seem to assume that we should all be adhering to your chosen methodology.

*Here appamāṇa does not mean "measureless" (Bodhi's translation - [from commentaries I suppose]) , but "unexhibited" , "undisplayed".

प्रमाण pramāṇa [act. pramā]
प्रमा pramā [obj. pramā]
प्रमा pramā [pra- √mā]

√ मा mā - pp. (mita)
- to show , display , exhibit RV.
You can't understand what a word means simply by breaking it down into it's roots. Regarding Ven. Bodhi's translation, we see it again here via the PTS:

Appamāṇa Appamāṇa (freq. spelled appamāna) (adj.) [a + pamāṇa] 1. "without measure", immeasurable, endless, boundless, unlimited, unrestricted all -- permeating S iv.186 (˚cetaso); A ii.73; v.63; Sn 507 (mettaŋ cittaŋ bhāvayaŋ appāmāṇaŋ = anavasesa -- pharaṇena SnA 417; cp. appamaññā); It 21 (mettā), 78; J ii.61; Ps ii.126 sq.; Vbh 16, 24, 49, 62, 326 sq.; Dhs 182, 1021, 1024, 1405; DhsA 45, 196 (˚gocara, cp. anantagocara). See also on term Dhs trsl. 60. — 2. "without difference", irrelevant, in general (in commentary style) J i.165; ii.323.

How much the PTS still relies on commentarial definitions, I do not know. They are totalities because they are above, below, across, nondual, measureless.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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