Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

Post by Ceisiwr »

skandha wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 11:09 pm that it is not possible to have consciousness without rupa.
That isn’t what the sutta is saying. If this were the case, Āḷāra Kālāma attained nibbāna.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

Post by skandha »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 11:18 pm
skandha wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 11:09 pm that it is not possible to have consciousness without rupa.
That isn’t what the sutta is saying. If this were the case, Āḷāra Kālāma attained nibbāna.
So I guess you are saying that it is possible to have consciousness without rupa because more precisely the sutta is saying that it is not possible to have consciousness without the whole gamut of rupa, vedana, sanna, and sankhara; not just the one condition of rupa.
A true master of knowledge has passed beyond all that is known and become dispassionate towards all vedanās.
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

Post by Ceisiwr »

skandha wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 11:26 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 11:18 pm
skandha wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 11:09 pm that it is not possible to have consciousness without rupa.
That isn’t what the sutta is saying. If this were the case, Āḷāra Kālāma attained nibbāna.
So I guess you are saying that it is possible to have consciousness without rupa because more precisely the sutta is saying that it is not possible to have consciousness without the whole gamut of rupa, vedana, sanna, and sankhara; not just the one condition of consciousness.
Consciousness can’t stand on its own. There is no consciousness in the abstract. It’s always conscious of something. In the formless attainments/ realms rūpa, however someone wants to translate it, is left behind. What is left is mind cognising a concept. 4 aggregates exist there as ultimate realities, not 5.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

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Ceisiwr wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 11:29 pm
skandha wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 11:26 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 11:18 pm

That isn’t what the sutta is saying. If this were the case, Āḷāra Kālāma attained nibbāna.
So I guess you are saying that it is possible to have consciousness without rupa because more precisely the sutta is saying that it is not possible to have consciousness without the whole gamut of rupa, vedana, sanna, and sankhara; not just the one condition of consciousness.
Consciousness can’t stand on its own. There is no consciousness in the abstract. It’s always conscious of something. In the formless attainments/ realms rūpa, however someone wants to translate it, is left behind. What is left is mind cognising a concept. 4 aggregates exist there as ultimate realities, not 5.
Which is non-sense because the attainment of infinite consciousness is the sixth jhana (the second arupa jhana).

It is also a kasina. Meaning that it exists everywhere always in every direction. It is perceivable to any mind that has the wisdom to look “outwards”. Consciousness is as elemental to the universe as the earth kasina, or the water kasina.

You are using “consciousness” in the Western sense.
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

Post by skandha »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 11:29 pm
skandha wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 11:26 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 11:18 pm

That isn’t what the sutta is saying. If this were the case, Āḷāra Kālāma attained nibbāna.
So I guess you are saying that it is possible to have consciousness without rupa because more precisely the sutta is saying that it is not possible to have consciousness without the whole gamut of rupa, vedana, sanna, and sankhara; not just the one condition of rupa.
Consciousness can’t stand on its own. There is no consciousness in the abstract. It’s always conscious of something. In the formless attainments/ realms rūpa, however someone wants to translate it, is left behind. What is left is mind cognising a concept. 4 aggregates exist there as ultimate realities, not 5.
I tend to look at it from the perspective of "mind cognising a concept" as cognising/recognising as the nama; and the concept as rupa. However thinking of it again there are concepts that are devoid of any form in terms of spatiality.
A true master of knowledge has passed beyond all that is known and become dispassionate towards all vedanās.
- Sn 529
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

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Pondera wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 11:39 pm
Which is non-sense because the attainment of infinite consciousness is the sixth jhana (the second arupa jhana).

It is also a kasina. Meaning that it exists everywhere always in every direction. It is perceivable to any mind that has the wisdom to look “outwards”. Consciousness is as elemental to the universe as the earth kasina, or the water kasina.

You are using “consciousness” in the Western sense.
Your views are heretical. In the attainment of infinite consciousness it’s the concept of infinite consciousness which is cognised.
Therein what are the four aggregates in the formless element? The aggregate of feeling, aggregate of perception, aggregate of volitional activities, aggregate of consciousness. These are called the four aggregates in the formless plane. (1)

Therein what are the two sense-bases in the formless element? The mind sense-base, ideational sense-base. These are called the two sense-bases in the formless element. (2)

Therein what are the two elements in the formless element? Mind-consciousness-element, ideational element. These are called the two elements in the formless element. (3)

Therein what are the three truths in the formless element? The truth of suffering, the truth of the cause, the truth of the path. These are called the three truths in the formless element. (4)

Therein what are the eleven faculties in the formless element? The faculty of mind, faculty of vital principle, faculty of mental pleasure, faculty of indifference, faculty of confidence, faculty of energy, faculty of mindfulness, faculty of samādhi, faculty of wisdom, faculty of intermediate awakening, faculty of final awakening. These are called the eleven faculties in the formless element. (5)

Therein what are the eight roots in the formless element? The three skilful roots; two unskilful roots; three neither-skilful-nor-unskilful roots. See section 994. These are called the eight roots in the formless element. (6)

Therein what are the three nutrients in the formless element? The nutrient of contact, the nutrient of volition, the nutrient of consciousness. These are called the three nutrients in the formless element. (7)

Therein what is the one (type of) contact in the formless element? Mind-consciousness-element contact. This is called the one (type of) contact in the formless element. (8)
https://suttacentral.net/vb18/en/thittila
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

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skandha wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 11:45 pm

I tend to look at it from the perspective of "mind cognising a concept" as cognising/recognising as the nama; and the concept as rupa. However thinking of it again there are concepts that are devoid of any form in terms of spatiality.
A concept is not rūpa. Concepts neither rise nor fall. They have no ultimate reality.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
skandha
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

Post by skandha »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 11:47 pm
Therein what are the four aggregates in the formless element? The aggregate of feeling, aggregate of perception, aggregate of volitional activities, aggregate of consciousness. These are called the four aggregates in the formless plane. (1)

Therein what are the two sense-bases in the formless element? The mind sense-base, ideational sense-base. These are called the two sense-bases in the formless element. (2)

Therein what are the two elements in the formless element? Mind-consciousness-element, ideational element. These are called the two elements in the formless element. (3)

Therein what are the three truths in the formless element? The truth of suffering, the truth of the cause, the truth of the path. These are called the three truths in the formless element. (4)

Therein what are the eleven faculties in the formless element? The faculty of mind, faculty of vital principle, faculty of mental pleasure, faculty of indifference, faculty of confidence, faculty of energy, faculty of mindfulness, faculty of samādhi, faculty of wisdom, faculty of intermediate awakening, faculty of final awakening. These are called the eleven faculties in the formless element. (5)

Therein what are the eight roots in the formless element? The three skilful roots; two unskilful roots; three neither-skilful-nor-unskilful roots. See section 994. These are called the eight roots in the formless element. (6)

Therein what are the three nutrients in the formless element? The nutrient of contact, the nutrient of volition, the nutrient of consciousness. These are called the three nutrients in the formless element. (7)

Therein what is the one (type of) contact in the formless element? Mind-consciousness-element contact. This is called the one (type of) contact in the formless element. (8)
https://suttacentral.net/vb18/en/thittila
Good quote in giving more details of what formless mean.
A true master of knowledge has passed beyond all that is known and become dispassionate towards all vedanās.
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

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Ceisiwr wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 11:47 pm
Pondera wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 11:39 pm
Which is non-sense because the attainment of infinite consciousness is the sixth jhana (the second arupa jhana).

It is also a kasina. Meaning that it exists everywhere always in every direction. It is perceivable to any mind that has the wisdom to look “outwards”. Consciousness is as elemental to the universe as the earth kasina, or the water kasina.

You are using “consciousness” in the Western sense.
Your views are heretical. In the attainment of infinite consciousness it’s the concept of infinite consciousness which is cognised.
Oh dear! Heretical now? The “concept” of consciousness? Is that opposed to the “reality” of consciousness?

What exactly is the concept of consciousness? And why wouldn’t a practitioner experience a “reality” of consciousness?

Out of curiosity, what do you think a “consciousness kasina” is?
Therein what are the four aggregates in the formless element? The aggregate of feeling, aggregate of perception, aggregate of volitional activities, aggregate of consciousness. These are called the four aggregates in the formless plane. (1)

Therein what are the two sense-bases in the formless element? The mind sense-base, ideational sense-base. These are called the two sense-bases in the formless element. (2)

Therein what are the two elements in the formless element? Mind-consciousness-element, ideational element. These are called the two elements in the formless element. (3)

Therein what are the three truths in the formless element? The truth of suffering, the truth of the cause, the truth of the path. These are called the three truths in the formless element. (4)

Therein what are the eleven faculties in the formless element? The faculty of mind, faculty of vital principle, faculty of mental pleasure, faculty of indifference, faculty of confidence, faculty of energy, faculty of mindfulness, faculty of samādhi, faculty of wisdom, faculty of intermediate awakening, faculty of final awakening. These are called the eleven faculties in the formless element. (5)

Therein what are the eight roots in the formless element? The three skilful roots; two unskilful roots; three neither-skilful-nor-unskilful roots. See section 994. These are called the eight roots in the formless element. (6)

Therein what are the three nutrients in the formless element? The nutrient of contact, the nutrient of volition, the nutrient of consciousness. These are called the three nutrients in the formless element. (7)

Therein what is the one (type of) contact in the formless element? Mind-consciousness-element contact. This is called the one (type of) contact in the formless element. (8)

https://suttacentral.net/vb18/en/thittila
Yeah. I’m too simple at this point to debate the commentaries with you. Let’s just stick to the suttas for now, mmmmmmmkay? :rofl:
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

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Pondera wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 12:29 am
The “concept” of consciousness? Is that opposed to the “reality” of consciousness?
Yes. Concepts are not real. That being said, upon review I might amend my previous statement. The orthodox explanation has it that one cognises a concept in infinite space and in Nothingness, whilst in infinite consciousness it is consciousness itself which is the object of meditation. Still, this consciousness rises and falls. It's certainly not something which exists everywhere "out there".
Immaterial-sphere consciousness (ar³p±vacaracitt±ni): This sphere of consciousness comprises the cittas pertaining to the immaterial plane of existence (ar³pabh³mi), four realms in which matter has been totally transcended and only consciousness and mental factors remain. Rebirth into these four realms comes about through the attainment of the ar³pajjh±nas, the four immaterial or formless absorptions, which are reached by developing concentration beyond the five jh±nas of the finematerial sphere. The immaterial sphere consists of twelve cittas—the four wholesome cittas with which the immaterial attainments are experienced by worldlings and trainees, the four resultants which arise through rebirth in the immaterial realms, and the four functionals which occur to Arahants who enter upon the immaterial attainments.

The base of infinite space (±k±s±nañc±yatana): The first of the four immaterial jh±nas is the attainment of the base of infinite space. To reach this, a meditator who has mastered the fifth fine-material jh±na based on a kasina object spreads out the counterpart sign of the kasina until it becomes immeasurable in extent. Then he removes the kasina by attending only to the space it pervaded, contemplating it as “infinite space.” Through repeated attention given in this way, there eventually arises in absorption a citta having as object the concept of infinite space (±k±sapaññatti). The expression “base of infinite space,” strictly speaking, refers to the concept of infinite space which serves as the object of the first immaterial-sphere consciousness. Here, the word ±yatana, “base,” has the sense of a habitat or dwelling for the citta of the jh±na. However, in a derivative sense, the expression “base of infinite space” is also extended to the jh±na itself.

The base of infinite consciousness (viññ±ºañc±yatana): The consciousness that is here said to be infinite is the consciousness of the first immaterial absorption. Since that first immaterial absorption has as its object the base or concept of infinite space, this implies that the consciousness which pervades that space as its object also partakes in its infinity. To reach this attainment, therefore, the meditator takes as object the consciousness of the base of infinite space, and contemplates it as “infinite consciousness” until the second immaterial absorption arises.

The base of nothingness (±kiñcaññ±yatana): The third immaterial attainment has as its object the present non-existence, voidness, or secluded aspect of the consciousness pertaining to the base of infinite space. By giving attention to the absence of that consciousness, the third immaterial absorption arises taking as its object the concept of nonexistence or nothingness (natthibh±va-paññatti) in respect of the first immaterial consciousness.

The base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception (n’evasaññ±n’±saññ±yatana): This fourth and final immaterial attainment is so called because it cannot be said either to include perception or to exclude perception. In this type of consciousness, the factor of perception (saññ±) has become so subtle that it can no longer perform the decisive function of perception, and thus this state cannot be said to have perception. Yet perception is not altogether absent but remains in a residual form; thus it cannot be said not to have perception. Although perception alone is mentioned, all the other mental constituents in this citta also exist in a state of such extreme subtlety that they cannot be described as either existent or non-existent. This fourth immaterial absorption takes as its object the consciousness of the base of nothingness, the third immaterial absorption.
Abhidhammattha-saṅgaha

Which is strange, since I seem to remember either the commentaries or the Abhidhamma stating that it is impossible for a citta to be aware of another citta. Perhaps Robert could offer some advice here?
robertk wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 11:11 am
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

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Pondera wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 12:29 am
Yeah. I’m too simple at this point to debate the commentaries with you. Let’s just stick to the suttas for now, mmmmmmmkay?
The Vibhaṅga is not strictly speaking commentary.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 1:01 am
Pondera wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 12:29 am
Yeah. I’m too simple at this point to debate the commentaries with you. Let’s just stick to the suttas for now, mmmmmmmkay?
The Vibhaṅga is not strictly speaking commentary.
I don’t think it matters either way. Consciousness kasina = consciousness totality.

If the nature of consciousness is arupa - then so be it.

According to EBT’s it is “boundless, existing in all directions”.

Therefore it is not a concept. It is a reality. To be seen with the dhamma eye.

In fact, I review it on a regular basis; whenever my concentration goes beyond pleasure into knowledge and vision - in fact consciousness is just a fine material object that permeates the universe. Much like any definition of a “kasina” would admit.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

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Pondera wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 1:36 am
I don’t think it matters either way. Consciousness kasina = consciousness totality.
Yes.
If the nature of consciousness is arupa - then so be it.
Yes.
According to EBT’s it is “boundless, existing in all directions”.
It is perceived that way in the attainment, or when in the formless realms. It's merely a meditative state. It's nothing to get excited about. It's not some metaphysical truth. The consciousness which is experiencing it is real, but it is impermanent.
Therefore it is not a concept. It is a reality.
Consciousness is, yes.
In fact, I review it on a regular basis; whenever my concentration goes beyond pleasure into knowledge and vision - in fact consciousness is just a fine material object that permeates the universe. Much like any definition of a “kasina” would admit.
I'm highly sceptical that you have even experienced access concentration, let alone Jhāna or the formless attainments.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

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Ceisiwr wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 11:51 pm
skandha wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 11:45 pm

I tend to look at it from the perspective of "mind cognising a concept" as cognising/recognising as the nama; and the concept as rupa. However thinking of it again there are concepts that are devoid of any form in terms of spatiality.
A concept is not rūpa. Concepts neither rise nor fall. They have no ultimate reality.
Consciousness is a “kasina”.

On what basis, therefore, do you argue that it is MERELY conceptual?

Do you know the meaning of “totality”??????! :rofl:
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: Vism.'s Buddhaghosa says the sukha-pleasure is experienced by a physical body in third jhana!

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 1:43 am
Pondera wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 1:36 am
I don’t think it matters either way. Consciousness kasina = consciousness totality.
Yes.
If the nature of consciousness is arupa - then so be it.
Yes.
According to EBT’s it is “boundless, existing in all directions”.
It is perceived that way in the attainment, or when in the formless realms. It's merely a meditative state. It's nothing to get excited about. It's not some metaphysical truth. The consciousness which is experiencing it is real, but it is impermanent.
Sure. But it is as invasive as any form body - like earth, water, fire, or wind.

Have you never perceived the “consciousness totality”??? Do you not perceive the level of “reality” that it has???

Do you instead think it is a mere illusion of perception? If you do, you are sorely mistaken.
Therefore it is not a concept. It is a reality.
Consciousness is, yes.
Okay. Not conforming to what you said earlier? :shrug:
In fact, I review it on a regular basis; whenever my concentration goes beyond pleasure into knowledge and vision - in fact consciousness is just a fine material object that permeates the universe. Much like any definition of a “kasina” would admit.
I'm highly sceptical that you have even experienced access concentration, let alone Jhāna or the formless attainments.
That’s funny. What would you know? What can you even barely comprehend about the level of suffering I’ve been through - and therefore the level of insight I have pursued?

You are sadly mistaken. You haven’t even breathed a breath of the level of suffering I endured for four years.

And it is WAY beyond your capacity to encapsulate the level of freedom I felt when that suffering met its end.

You are so out of your league. If not. State it. How deep does your suffering go?

That is the only measure of your freedom. :rofl:
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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