Help: What level of development do i have? sotapanna maybe? how to continue

[RobertoGaleno]

Helo, sorry english is not my mother tongue, I'll try to explain myself the better i can.

I've been meditating by my own for months (no teacher to ask), I was meditating on greed, hatred, and delusion, I used to see very clearly greed and hatred in my mind, very strong, by instance:
When i was hungry could see the greed for tasty food. I could see the greed for sex.I could see the hatred/relentless because of pain when i was meditating (I tried to endure pain just to meditate about it but always have to move because of too much pain) ...

After meditating a night they disappeared, never came back again since then, disappeared all day, so now I can't see then anymore, or maybe are too subtle to see then (sometime i have doubts, maybe is this desire but not clear at all as before), by instance:
I can eat just a meal a day (what i do) and i feel the hunger but when i watch my mind there is no desire by food, i can think in tasty foods but there is no greed on my mind, no discomfort, just hunger just a sensation ... i still prefer tasty food to rubbish and enjoy it, but don't feel crabbing because of it, neither after fasting for days.
When I see a woman i know that is gorgeous, but i look in my mind, no greed, no desire , no lust, no need/desire to masturbation neither ... can see a porn video and look in my mind and there isn't lust.
Can endure pain for very very long, can sit in a fix position for more than an hour and can feel the pain but no desire too move, no relentless, just pain. I can pinch sensitive areas of my body very very strong, i feel the pain but no problem, no desire to avoid it ...
When i feel bad, or sad i can just look on my, no desire, just a feeling, not disturb me, just feeling (sad, bad) ...
Know my mind is very prone to "concentration" is like very obedient, calms very easy ...

When i try to do something extreme, like meditating for an hour and a half in a positión i know is going to be painful (because of my lack of flexibility), after an hour or so i start to see maybe boredom or relentless coming back again, but can't see them clearly like before ...

When this happened to me absolutely nothing changed in my life, not a big insight, just acting the same, same habits, but now nothing alteres me, can lose the subway no problem just wait, problem in work ... it's ok, all just the same, same habits, same feelings just inside of me there is calm, no aversion or desire, what i see is that my habits are getting purified as I do more a more things without desire, getting more calm, getting better habits ... but nothing changed, just no desire where used to be (i used to see it in my mind).

I haven't entered in jhanna, i don't know what jhannas are neither and not interested, I just wanted to end suffering by attenuating greed, hatred, and delusion.


So can anyone help me with my confusion or point me to the answer:
what was that?, maybe is very common but my knowledge about damma is to little to find the answer.
Is this the entry in some of the levels they call "Sotāpanna, Sakadāgāmī, Anāgāmī y Arhat", sotapanna maybe?
What point in my practice am I now, and what should be my next steps, my knowledge of scriptures are very limited. Maybe just keeping my meditation in greed, hatred, and delusion and with time I'll see subtle form of it, but as I see nothing is not a very insightful meditation?

Metta.

[SarathW]

maybe is very common but my knowledge about damma is to little to find the answer.

Early days of my study, once in meditation I thought I attained Arahantship.
However, when I checked it with Dhamma I realised that I have a false belief.
My suggestion is that you learn Dhamma well and compare your experience with Dhamma and know it for yourself.
Only Buddha will be able to tell the attainment of another.

[DooDoot]

a sotapanna is free from doubt

can see a porn video and look in my mind and there isn't lust.

why would you see a porn video?

When i try to do something extreme, like meditating for an hour and a half in a positión i know is going to be painful (because of my lack of flexibility), after an hour or so i start to see maybe boredom or relentless coming back again, but can't see them clearly like before ...

90 minutes of meditation is not extreme. boredom or restlessness means concentration is not well-developed. calmness & rapture is not developed

I haven't entered in jhanna, i don't know what jhannas are neither

that is obvious. however, sotapanna has not entered jhana also

I just wanted to end suffering by attenuating greed, hatred, and delusion.

and?

When this happened to me absolutely nothing changed in my life, not a big insight, just acting the same, same habits, but now nothing alteres me, can lose the subway no problem just wait, problem in work ... it's ok, all just the same, same habits, same feelings just inside of me there is calm, no aversion or desire, what i see is that my habits are getting purified as I do more a more things without desire, getting more calm, getting better habits ... but nothing changed, just no desire where used to be (i used to see it in my mind).

how can same old habits exist without desire? habits are manifestations of desire. there cannot be habits without desire

So can anyone help me with my confusion or point me to the answer:

Is this the entry in some of the levels they call "Sotāpanna, Sakadāgāmī, Anāgāmī y Arhat", sotapanna maybe?

no. all levels are free from view of real self

What point in my practice am I now, and what should be my next steps, my knowledge of scriptures are very limited. Maybe just keeping my meditation in greed, hatred, and delusion and with time I'll see subtle form of it, but as I see nothing is not a very insightful meditation?

you should live a pure life with no masturbation, no sex, no drugs, no alcohol, moderation in eating and, naturally, no porn. then keep meditation by giving up greed, hatred, and delusion. Delusion includes regarding things/life as "I", "me" & "mine"

when your mind clearly sees giving up self-attachment is freedom from suffering, including clearly seeing most the five aggregates (body, feelings, perceptions, thoughts/desires & consciousness) are just aggregates instead of a real self, so you have no doubt about the Path, your mind is sotapanna

but now, it seems you have the ability to stop some desires but not yet entered the stream of sotapanna

it is like you left the land and entered the river but you are not yet flowing with the stream to the sea. your mind is stationary probably because your mind is not yet letting go. instead, it is clinging like a zombie rather than has "let go" or "surrendered"

for example, the scriptures refer to a state of mind called "imperturbable formation", which is not the path, which sounds similar to what you wrote

to enter the stream to sotapanna, your mind should be flexible, gentle, still, non-thinking, non-ambitious

kind regards

[Srilankaputra]

At one time Venerable Sāriputta and Venerable Mahākoṭṭhita were staying near Benares, in the deer park at Isipatana. Then in the late afternoon, Venerable Mahākoṭṭhita came out of retreat, went to Venerable Sāriputta, and said:

“Reverend Sāriputta, what things should an ethical mendicant properly attend to?”

“Reverend Koṭṭhita, an ethical mendicant should properly attend to the five grasping aggregates as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self. What five? That is, the grasping aggregates of form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness. An ethical mendicant should properly attend to these five grasping aggregates as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self. It’s possible that an ethical mendicant who regards the five grasping aggregates in this way will realize the fruit of stream-entry.”

“But Reverend Sāriputta, what things should a mendicant stream-enterer properly attend to?”

“A mendicant stream-enterer should properly attend to these five grasping aggregates as impermanent … as not-self. It’s possible that a mendicant stream-enterer who regards the five grasping aggregates in this way will realize the fruit of once-return.”

“But Reverend Sāriputta, what things should a mendicant once-returner properly attend to?”

“A mendicant once-returner should properly attend to these five grasping aggregates as impermanent … as not-self. It’s possible that a mendicant once-returner who regards the five grasping aggregates in this way will realize the fruit of non-return.”

“But Reverend Sāriputta, what things should a mendicant non-returner properly attend to?”

“A mendicant non-returner should properly attend to these five grasping aggregates as impermanent … as not-self. It’s possible that a mendicant non-returner who regards the five grasping aggregates in this way will realize perfection.”

“But Reverend Sāriputta, what things should a perfected one properly attend to?”

“Reverend Koṭṭhita, a perfected one should properly attend to the five grasping aggregates as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self. A perfected one has nothing more to do, and nothing that needs improvement. Still, these things, when developed and cultivated, lead to blissful meditation in the present life, and also to mindfulness and situational awareness.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.122/en/sujato

[pegembara]

So can anyone help me with my confusion or point me to the answer:
what was that?, maybe is very common but my knowledge about damma is to little to find the answer.
Is this the entry in some of the levels they call "Sotāpanna, Sakadāgāmī, Anāgāmī y Arhat", sotapanna maybe?
What point in my practice am I now, and what should be my next steps, my knowledge of scriptures are very limited. Maybe just keeping my meditation in greed, hatred, and delusion and with time I'll see subtle form of it, but as I see nothing is not a very insightful meditation?

Metta.

The 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha, and anatta should be clearly experienced and seen as not me, not mine, not myself.
What previously provoked greed and hatred no longer obsess the mind as before. In general, there will be a change in lifestyle and habits.
I suspect what you are experiencing is a form of calmness/tranquillity from your meditation ... not insight yet.

At Savatthi. "Monks, eye-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

[dharmacorps]

You are just starting out meditating and it sounds like you are just starting. You are probably suffering from the common condition of beginners overestimation.

As my teachers have told me, as long as you are thinking about whether you are in samadhi, jhana, or a sotapanna, you will experience none of those. Just watch the breath and leave the rest for later.

[JamesTheGiant]

Everyone has given good advice, above.
Continue meditating and studying, and one day you will become a sotapanna.
Continue, continue.

[mjaviem]

... So can anyone help me with my confusion or point me to the answer:
...

and I hope the answers you got are helping you. I'm preaching that indifference is the opposite of being careful. Are you being indifferent or are you paying careful attention?

[RobertoGaleno]

maybe is very common but my knowledge about damma is to little to find the answer.

Early days of my study, once in meditation I thought I attained Arahantship.
However, when I checked it with Dhamma I realised that I have a false belief.
My suggestion is that you learn Dhamma well and compare your experience with Dhamma and know it for yourself.
Only Buddha will be able to tell the attainment of another.

Thank you for your answer

Obviously I'm not an arahant, maybe sotapanna, i don't know ... I was thinking that maybe people with more knowledge of suttas can tell me, or maybe someone that has been there before. Maybe a teacher could tell my in a second but have no teacher.

why would you see a porn video?

Thank you for your answer.

To check, it's easy to resist lust without stimulation, I wanted to check if i can watch a video without getting hot.
Same for pain, why to inflict pain yourself?. To check, it's easy to "endure" mild pain, but what happens with real strong pain (the more strong pain I can cause without damaging my body).
I mean in my normal life nothing can make me suffer, no desire, no suffering that's a big achievement, but i doubt very much I can keep this state of calm if something really big happens to me, a very painful illness, or a car accident with lots of bones broken, ...

90 minutes of meditation is not extreme. boredom or restlessness means concentration is not well-developed. calmness & rapture is not developed

It's for me, I couldn't sit for more than 50 minutes in half lotus posture (a lot more time in a chair maybe a couple of hours), very painful for me, to be able of sitting 90 minutes without changing posture and feel in the end boredom instead of "unsupportable pain, a torture" is like a super power for me, just describing the change from one day to the next, not progressive improvement, just a jump ...
How much time can meditate a sotapanna in a sit? after an hour or so my concentration just starts fading ...

Anyway this has been very useful, maybe I just have to check the limits, if i meditate for long enough desire would raise again.
I realized that now it must just have lessen so my ability to see it is not good enough (at the beginning of my practice i can't see it neither, then it was so clear i just have to thing in tasty food with a little hunger and desire was there, clear craving). Maybe the solution is to improve my ability to see desire so i can see it clearly again and make desire raise by long fasting, pain, long meditations ... so i can see it again and train my ability of seen it ... i can try to continue my practice like this, trying to improve my ability to see and trying to raise desire simultaneously so i can see it again in more subtle forms, so i can continue improving. If no better idea is proposed by anyone ...

and?

Just giving as much info as i can so maybe someone know, irrelevant info maybe

how can same old habits exist without desire? habits are manifestations of desire. there cannot be habits without desire

Well no change in my moral, before paying taxes was bad and not doing it (illegally) was perfectly right, now paying taxes is bad and I'll try to not pay even illegally ... before when I get splash with burning oil in the kitchen i withdraw the hand as soon as possible by instinct, now just the same but then I think, wait a moment, It's just pain, no problem ... before i like to travel sited in the subway, now the same ... some habits changed like masturbation, eating just once a day, because i decided to change them ... but the rest just the same, no change ... just giving information, maybe irrelevant one ...

no. all levels are free from view of real self

I understand it at an intellectual level, but how do you understand at a profound level, isn't it what I'm describing?

If you understand that your body isn't you, why can't you endure pain if it's not yours pain? isn't it been able to endure pain, not with willpower but just because it doesn't mater, a prove of understanding?

If you understand thoughts/emotions aren't yours why do them make your suffer if aren't yours? It's not been able of watch thoughts without desire (when i say no desire i mean no suffering, it's the same for me, if i look in my mind and there is no desire, there is no suffering, or boredom, o relentless ... just calm and peace in the middle of a storm, pain, negative emotions, life problems, people ...) the prove you have understood.

Isn't it getting free of desire (or lessen it) the prove you've understood desire? How can you get rid of desire without understanding desire?

you should live a pure life with no masturbation, no sex, no drugs, no alcohol, moderation in eating and, naturally, no porn. then keep meditation by giving up greed, hatred, and delusion. Delusion includes regarding things/life as "I", "me" & "mine"

when your mind clearly sees giving up self-attachment is freedom from suffering, including clearly seeing most the five aggregates (body, feelings, perceptions, thoughts/desires & consciousness) are just aggregates instead of a real self, so you have no doubt about the Path, your mind is sotapanna

but now, it seems you have the ability to stop some desires but not yet entered the stream of sotapanna

it is like you left the land and entered the river but you are not yet flowing with the stream to the sea. your mind is stationary probably because your mind is not yet letting go. instead, it is clinging like a zombie rather than has "let go" or "surrendered"

for example, the scriptures refer to a state of mind called "imperturbable formation", which is not the path, which sounds similar to what you wrote

to enter the stream to sotapanna, your mind should be flexible, gentle, still, non-thinking, non-ambitious

kind regards

Sorry I haven't found in google what is "imperturbable formation" it could be helpful, would it be too much to as a link?

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.122/en/sujato

Thank you for your answer.

So same question, what does the sutta mean (i never understand suttas sorry) with:

“A mendicant stream-enterer should properly attend to these five grasping aggregates as impermanent … as not-self. It’s possible that a mendicant stream-enterer who regards the five grasping aggregates in this way will realize the fruit of once-return.”

isn't it proof of understanding desire not having desire? (or having less desire) how could I fully understand desire and suffer because of desire? how could I eliminate desire without understanding desire?
isn't it proof of understating body is alien/impermanent not suffering (having desire) because o the boy, understanding emotions are alien/impermanent not suffering because of emotions, thoughts aren't you not being pull by thoughts ...

So please, what means to "understand as impermanent … as not-self"? what should i understand an how?

Thank you all for helping

The 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha, and anatta should be clearly experienced and seen as not me, not mine, not myself.
What previously provoked greed and hatred no longer obsess the mind as before. In general, there will be a change in lifestyle and habits.
I suspect what you are experiencing is a form of calmness/tranquillity from your meditation ... not insight yet.

Thank you for your answer
I started with Goenka method, observing sensations in my body, because i have stress in my job, very very useful at the beginning, in just a couple of weeks no stress anymore, it was like magic, so fast. Anicca was obvious (sensations raising and disappearing all the time), your body not been yours was obvious, i learned to feel sensations on all my body, but after some time thoughs started to bother me, I can't see the relation between sensations on the body and thoughts or feelings ... so i switched to anapanasati very useful to calm thoughs and to develop concentration, but after a time i realized it can calm me a lot while sitting but not in my real life ... so i switched to vipassana, I started been aware of body all day and in meditation, it somehow helped me to be calm or under control in my day life, then thoughs and feelings and then i realize that desire was the key, so i started been aware of desire, there is anicca in desire too they raise and disappears if you don't feed it, dukkha in desire too (it produces suffering, I don't see dukkha) and anatta too you can se how body (feelings), thoughs and emotion has nothing to see with suffering, just desire, i don't know were is desire i just see in my head, it's somewhere, just by watching used to disappear (small ones), ... so one day no desire anymore, nothing to watch ... how should i continue my practice, what's next?

How do you meditate about anicca, dukkha, and anatta? isn't it implied in watching desire?

I know my practice is totally chaotic but have no teacher, just try and error

You are just starting out meditating and it sounds like you are just starting. You are probably suffering from the common condition of beginners overestimation.

As my teachers have told me, as long as you are thinking about whether you are in samadhi, jhana, or a sotapanna, you will experience none of those. Just watch the breath and leave the rest for later.

Thank you,
I tried anapanasati, At first i can't watch breath for 30 second in a row, my mind always distracted, but then i can watch breath for an hour, maybe been distracted just two or tree times in a sit, it calms me so much, very calm, very peaceful, but just while sitting ... what fruit should i expect of watching breath (i already obtained an easy to concentrate mind, "samadhi", far form prefect for sure, but good enough for vipassana i guess)?, should i watch breath forever like an automaton, if i see no improvement or fruit? What told you your teacher to do next?

Maybe having more samadhi can help me on being able to see desire again (seeing subtle desire), but in my experience doesn't help, vipassana is better to learn how to watch things in your mind, anyway I can try in the future if i don't see any improvement trying to raise desire again through ... it's a valid option to try too, thanks.

Thank you all very much for your help

Everyone has given good advice, above.
Continue meditating and studying, and one day you will become a sotapanna.
Continue, continue.

thanks for your encouragement too

... So can anyone help me with my confusion or point me to the answer:
...

and I hope the answers you got are helping you. I'm preaching that indifference is the opposite of being careful. Are you being indifferent or are you paying careful attention?

Thank you for your answer,
In my mind if there is no desire there is no suffering (to me is just the same), i don't suffer (anyway my life somehow good an easy but it's was the same before and i have suffering, stress, pain ...), i have painful sensations as anyone, i have negative feelings as anyone, i have negative thoughs, i even can have agitation in my mind and body, what i don't have is suffering, it's like being calm in the middle of an storm ...

[mjaviem]

... So can anyone help me with my confusion or point me to the answer:
...

and I hope the answers you got are helping you. I'm preaching that indifference is the opposite of being careful. Are you being indifferent or are you paying careful attention?

Thank you for your answer,
In my mind if there is no desire there is no suffering (to me is just the same), i don't suffer (anyway my life somehow good an easy but it's was the same before and i have suffering, stress, pain ...), i have painful sensations as anyone, i have negative feelings as anyone, i have negative thoughs, i even can have agitation in my mind and body, what i don't have is suffering, it's like being calm in the middle of an storm ...

I'm glad you find that calm though I doubt you are free from suffering. Finding no satisfaction is also suffering.

[dharmacorps]

OP, from your response, sounds like you are still stuck on what fruit you are going to be "getting" from what you are doing. As long as you crave that and are distracted by it, fruits won't come. Just meditate, keep the precepts, and keep it up.

[sphairos]

It sounds like a very deep level of realization: sakadāgāmī or anāgāmī, if not Enligtenment.

But I guess if you were Enlightened you would know that and you would feel constant bliss/joy.

[user99]

It sounds like you are a streamenterer.

[dicsoncandra]

It sounds like you are a streamenterer.

It sounds like you are a streamenterer.

A stream-enterer knows exactly that he is one, though. He may be on the right track meditatively but perhaps missing a small piece to the puzzle. Similar to Bahiya who was highly developed and had let go of sense pleasure, etc. but wasn't even a sotapanna before meeting the Buddha due to self-view.

[user99]

One cant get more hapiness after the life have startered.