Did the Buddha use method of "analysis" ???

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DooDoot
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Did the Buddha use method of "analysis" ???

Post by DooDoot »

Dear DW forum

I read the following on the internet:
It has been said by the Theras that the methodology of the Blessed One was that of analysis and synthesis. Analysis breaks what seems like a whole being or self into parts, the dhammas, whilst synthesis shows how these ultimate realities are conditionally related to each other. Analysis abolishes atta and substance theories, whilst synthesis abolishes the delusion of permanence in what is impermanent. The Dhammasaṅgaṇī deals with analysis in terms of the dhammas, whilst the Paṭṭhāna is focused upon synthesis. The link below is a good resource for those who wish to learn about the Paṭṭhāna, the Abhidhamma text on conditional relations.

http://patthana.net/?page_id=46
Is the above true? Did the Blessed use "analysis" to breaks what seems like a whole being or self into parts?

Please discuss. :smile:
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SarathW
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Re: Did the Buddha use method of "analysis" ???

Post by SarathW »

Is the above true? Did the Blessed use "analysis" to breaks what seems like a whole being or self into parts?
Buddha uses these analogies to show how the world is dependently originated.
It is like the simile of the butcher who separates a cow into different parts of its body.
However, he never denied that there is a conventional reality or existence.
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Re: Did the Buddha use method of "analysis" ???

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:29 am Buddha uses these analogies to show how the world is dependently originated.
It is like the simile of the butcher who separates a cow into different parts of its body.
However, he never denied that there is a conventional reality or existence.
The question is: "Did the Blessed use "analysis" to break what seems like a whole being or self into parts?"
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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pegembara
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Re: Did the Buddha use method of "analysis" ???

Post by pegembara »

Here is an example of "analysis" - or deconstruction.
By whom was this living being created?
Where is the living being's maker?
Where has the living being originated?
Where does the living being
cease?

What? Do you assume a 'living being,' Mara?
Do you take a position?
This is purely a pile of fabrications.
Here no living being
can be pinned down.

Just as when, with an assemblage of parts,
there's the word,
chariot,
even so when aggregates are present,
there's the convention of
living being.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
An another -
"Bhikkhus, form is not-self. Were form self, then this form would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.' And since form is not-self, so it leads to affliction, and none can have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.'

"Bhikkhus, feeling is not-self...

"Bhikkhus, perception is not-self...

"Bhikkhus, determinations are not-self...

"Bhikkhus, consciousness is not self.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
And another-
"If anyone were to say, 'The eye is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable. The arising & falling away of the eye are discerned. And when its arising & falling away are discerned, it would follow that 'My self arises & falls away.' That's why it wouldn't be tenable if anyone were to say, 'The eye is the self.' So the eye is not-self. If anyone were to say, 'Forms are the self,' that wouldn't be tenable... Thus the eye is not-self and forms are not-self. If anyone were to say, 'Consciousness at the eye is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable... Thus the eye is not-self, forms are not-self, consciousness at the eye is not-self. If anyone were to say, 'Contact at the eye is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable... Thus the eye is not-self, forms are not-self, consciousness at the eye is not-self, contact at the eye is not-self. If anyone were to say, 'Feeling is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable... Thus the eye is not-self, forms are not-self, consciousness at the eye is not-self, contact at the eye is not-self, feeling is not self. If anyone were to say, 'Craving is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable. The arising & falling away of craving are discerned. And when its arising & falling away are discerned, it would follow that 'My self arises & falls away.' That's why it wouldn't be tenable if anyone were to say, 'Craving is the self.' Thus the eye is not-self, forms are not-self, consciousness at the eye is not-self, contact at the eye is not-self, feeling is not self, craving is not-self.

"If anyone were to say, 'The ear is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable...

"If anyone were to say, 'The nose is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable...

"If anyone were to say, 'The tongue is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable...

"If anyone were to say, 'The body is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable...

"If anyone were to say, 'The intellect is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Last edited by pegembara on Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Did the Buddha use method of "analysis" ???

Post by SarathW »

The question is: "Did the Blessed use "analysis" to break what seems like a whole being or self into parts?"
:rofl:
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Re: Did the Buddha use method of "analysis" ???

Post by DooDoot »

pegembara wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:51 am Here is an example of "analysis" - or deconstruction.
The above is by Sister Vajira.
pegembara wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:51 amAn another -
"Bhikkhus, form is not-self. Were form self, then this form would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.' And since form is not-self, so it leads to affliction, and none can have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.'

"Bhikkhus, feeling is not-self...

"Bhikkhus, perception is not-self...

"Bhikkhus, determinations are not-self...

"Bhikkhus, consciousness is not self.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
The above appears to say form, feeling, perception, formations & consciousness are not-self. I does not appear to be an attempt to deconstruct the self. Instead, it appears to be the insight revealed about examination of body & mind. You appear to be placing the cart before the horse. When Gotama undertook the Noble Search, was he searching to deconstruct the Self? :shrug:
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pegembara
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Re: Did the Buddha use method of "analysis" ???

Post by pegembara »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:58 am
The above appears to say form, feeling, perception, formations & consciousness are not-self. I does not appear to be an attempt to deconstruct the self. Instead, it appears to be the insight revealed about examination of body & mind. You appear to be placing the cart before the horse. When Gotama undertook the Noble Search, was he searching to deconstruct the Self? :shrug:
The examination of body and mind is how deconstruction is done.
"It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"I will teach you the Dhamma, monk. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

The Blessed One said: "A person has six properties, six media of sensory contact, eighteen considerations, & four determinations. He has been stilled where the currents of construing do not flow. And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is said to be a sage at peace. One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm. This is the summary of the analysis of the six properties.

"'A person has six properties.' Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said? These are the six properties: the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, the wind property, the space property, the consciousness property. 'A person has six properties.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said.

"'A person has six media of sensory contact.' Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said? These are the six media of sensory contact: the eye as a medium of sensory contact, the ear... the nose... the tongue... the body... the intellect as a medium of sensory contact. 'A person has six media of sensory contact.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Last edited by pegembara on Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Did the Buddha use method of "analysis" ???

Post by DooDoot »

pegembara wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:18 am The examination of body and mind is how deconstruction is done.
"It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Reasonable quote. But, again, from a post-enlightenment perspective. In other words, it appears not how the Buddha found the Path.

Regardless, how is the self deconstructed in Dependent Origination? Thanks :thanks:
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Re: Did the Buddha use method of "analysis" ???

Post by pegembara »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:22 am Regardless, how is the self deconstructed in Dependent Origination? Thanks :thanks:
It is more than just a deconstruction of a self, but the deconstruction of the entirety of sense experience or "our world".
Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta: Analysis of Dependent Co-arising

"And what is craving? These six are classes of craving: craving for forms, craving for sounds, craving for smells, craving for tastes, craving for tactile sensations, craving for ideas. This is called craving.

"And what is feeling? These six are classes of feeling: feeling born from eye-contact, feeling born from ear-contact, feeling born from nose-contact, feeling born from tongue-contact, feeling born from body-contact, feeling born from intellect-contact. This is called feeling.

"And what is contact? These six are classes of contact: eye-contact, ear-contact, nose-contact, tongue-contact, body-contact, intellect-contact. This is called contact.

"And what are the six sense media? These six are sense media: the eye-medium, the ear-medium, the nose-medium, the tongue-medium, the body-medium, the intellect-medium. These are called the six sense media.....

"And what is consciousness? These six are classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, intellect-consciousness. This is called consciousness.
"Or he doesn't assume form to be the self, but he assumes the self as possessing form... form as in the self... self as in form... or feeling to be the self... the self as possessing feeling... feeling as in the self... self as in feeling... or perception to be the self... the self as possessing perception... perception as in the self... self as in perception... or fabrications to be the self... the self as possessing fabrications... fabrications as in the self... self as in fabrications... or consciousness to be the self... the self as possessing consciousness... consciousness as in the self... self as in consciousness.

"Now that assumption is a fabrication[construction]. What is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by the feeling born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. That craving... That feeling... That contact... That ignorance is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. It is by knowing & seeing in this way that one without delay puts an end to the effluents.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Did the Buddha use method of "analysis" ???

Post by DooDoot »

pegembara wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:30 am It is more than just a deconstruction of a self, but the deconstruction of the entirety of sense experience or "our world".
The topic is about deconstruction of "whole being" or "self".

:focus:
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Re: Did the Buddha use method of "analysis" ???

Post by robertk »

http://www.abhidhamma.org/lett1.html
Nandakovada-sutta' (Middle Length Sayings, III, no. 146) that

Nandaka, a bhikkhu, had to preach to the nuns. Then the Buddha asked him to repeat to them exactly the same sermon. Why? Their 'faculties' (indriyas 1) were developed and hearing the same sermon again would be the right condition for them to attain the degree of enlightenment for which they were ripe. How could that happen? Could it be just because they were listening and thinking about what they heard, or rather because there would be mindfulness while listening? While listening there could be mindfulness of nama and rupa, of seeing, hearing, thinking or feeling, of any reality appearing through one of the six doors. When I quote what Nandaka said, one may think, 'Is that all?' However, when one listens with mindfulness one can come to know realities as they are. We read:

'What do you think about this, sisters? Is the eye permanent or impermanent?'

'Impermanent, revered sir.'

'But is what is impermanent anguish or happiness?'

'Anguish, revered sir.'

'Is it right to regard that which is impermanent, anguish and liable to alteration as, "This is mine, this am I, this is myself"?'

'No, revered sir.

What do you think about this, sisters? Is the ear... the nose... the tongue... the bodysense... the mind permanent or impermanent? ... Is it right to regard that which is impermanent, anguish and liable to alteration as, "This is mine, this am I, this is myself"?'

'No, revered sir.What is the reason for this?

Already, revered sir, by means of perfect intuitive wisdom it has been well seen by us as it really is that, "These six internal sense-fields are impermanent." '

The six 'internal sense-fields' are the five senses and the mind-door. The same is said about the six 'external sense-fields' : colours, sounds, smells, flavours, tangibles and mental objects. The same is said about the

'six classes of consciousness' which experience these objects. Then Nandaka said:

'It is good, sisters, it is good. For it is thus, sisters, that by means of perfect intuitive wisdom this is seen by an ariyan disciple as it really is.

It is, sisters, like the oil for lighting an oil-lamp which is impermanent and liable to alteration, and like the wick which is impermanent and liable to alteration, and like the flame which is impermanent and liable to alteration, and like the light which is impermanent and liable to alteration. If anyone, sisters, were to speak thus: " The oil for lighting this oil-lamp is impermanent and liable to alteration, and the wick... and the flame is impermanent and liable to alteration, but that which is the light-- that is permanent, lasting, eternal, not liable to alteration," speaking thus, sisters, would he be speaking rightly?'

'No, revered sir. What is the reason for this?

It is, revered sir, that if the oil for lighting this oil-lamp be impermanent and liable to alteration, and if the wick... and if the flame be impermanent and liable to alteration, all the more is the light impermanent and liable to alteration.'

'Even so, sisters, if anyone should speak thus: "These six internal sense-fields are impermanent and liable to alteration, but whatever pleasure or pain or indifferent feeling I experience as a result of these six internal sense-fields-- that is permanent, lasting, eternal, not liable to alteration," speaking thus, sisters, would he be speaking rightly?'

'No, revered sir.What is the reason for this?

As a result of this or that condition, revered sir, these or those feelings arise. From the stopping of this or that condition these or those feelings are stopped.'

You wrote that awareness helps you to be less involved when unpleasant things happen. When there are conditions for sati and panna we are not taken in by the objects which present themselves through the six doors. However, there are many moments of forgetfulness of realities. For instance, when feelings are intense, we tend to take them for self, we find it very difficult to see them as only conditioned realities.

At times we have unpleasant experiences and there is akusala vipaka through eyes, ears, nose, tongue or bodysense. The other day someone hit me, meaning it as a joke. Feeling the impact of it was akusala vipaka through the bodysense. Why, why did this have to happen? At such moments one may be upset and there is no awareness. Of course, I know why it happened: it was akusala vipaka, the result of akusala kamma. Thus we see that everything we have to experience are only conditioned realities, and also our like or dislike of what happens, and our feelings, are only conditioned realities.

Our attachment or dislike are not vipaka, they arise with akusala cittas which are conditioned by our accumulated defilements. There are different types of conditions which play their part in our life.

Now I shall continue with the sutta. Nandaka said further on:

'It is good, sisters, it is good. For it is thus, sisters, that by means of perfect intuitive wisdom this is seen by an ariyan disciple as it really is.

It is, sisters, as if a clever cattle-butcher or cattle-butcher's apprentice, having killed a cow, should dissect the cow with a butcher's sharp knife without spoiling the flesh within, without spoiling the outer hide, and with the butcher's sharp knife should cut, should cut around, should cut all around whatever tendons, sinews and ligaments there are within; and having cut, cut around, cut all around and removed the outer hide and, having clothed that cow in that self-same hide again, should then speak thus: " This cow is conjoined with this hide as before." Speaking thus, sisters, would he be speaking rightly?'

'No, revered sir.What is the reason for this?

Although, revered sir, that clever cattle-butcher or cattle-butcher's apprentice, having killed a cow... having clothed that cow in that self-same hide again, might then speak thus: "This cow is conjoined with this hide as before," yet that cow is not conjoined with that hide.'

'I have made this simile for you, sisters, so as to illustrate the meaning.

This is the meaning here: "the flesh within" sisters, is a synonym for the six internal sense-fields. "The outer hide", sisters, is a synonym for the six external sense-fields. "The tendons, sinews and ligaments within", sisters, is a synonym for delight and attachment. "The butcher's sharp knife", sisters, is a synonym for the ariyan intuitive wisdom, the ariyan intuitive wisdom by which one cuts, cuts around, cuts all around the inner defilements, the inner fetters and the inner bonds.'
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Re: Did the Buddha use method of "analysis" ???

Post by befriend »

contemplation of the 32 parts of the body is not just to reduce lust but to develop insight into Anatta same with contemplation of the elements.
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Re: Did the Buddha use method of "analysis" ???

Post by Dhammavamsa »

Buddha is the true Vibhajjavadin. He breaking down, analyses, and dispel the illusion of "Self" view.
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Re: Did the Buddha use method of "analysis" ???

Post by DooDoot »

Dhammavamsa wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:29 am Buddha is the true Vibhajjavadin. He breaking down, analyses, and dispel the illusion of "Self" view.
Buddha analyzed & broken down dukkha. It was only because dukkha is related to 'self' the Buddha broke down 'self'. If 'self' was not the cause of dukkha, the Buddha would have ignored it.

In 'theory', many 'Buddhists' not yet free from dukkha superstitiously declare all things are 'not-self' from blind faith. If the mind is not yet free from dukkha, believing in not-self is the same as believing in god. :smile:
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Re: Did the Buddha use method of "analysis" ???

Post by Bundokji »

Constructions beget deconstructions, it is part of this-that conditionality. Idappaccayatā seems to have wider implications than analysis as it makes analysis contingent to constructions. Differentiating Idappaccayatā from analysis is difficult as absence of constructions can be imagined analytically rather than known directly. Or why imagining absence is not a direct knowledge?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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