Side effects of meditation

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Tennok
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Re: Side effects of meditation

Post by Tennok »

BrokenBones wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:22 am
Any pleasure that arises in the body through following the Buddha's instructions (as opposed to Buddhaghosa's) is not brought about by focusing on the actual body.

Why would anapana involve focusing on the body?
I thoght it's quiet common. Ajahn Lee, Ven Thanissaro, Leigh Brassington...or Frank k. here on Dhamma Wheel...They all teach body scaning, noticing various bodily sensations and energies. Focusing on the body in one way or another.

It all boils down to the meaning of the term kaya. I've thought you read it as a physical body, am I incorrect?

At the contrary, I thought that Buddhaghosa, or Ajahn Brahm, teach a method in which kaya means a body of breath...You let go of the physiacal body and senses. And later, by contemplating jhana factors and the nimitta, deal with the mind itself. So Buddhaghosa would be less body focused, than Leigh Brasington, for example.
BrokenBones
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Re: Side effects of meditation

Post by BrokenBones »

Tennok wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:27 am
BrokenBones wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:22 am
Any pleasure that arises in the body through following the Buddha's instructions (as opposed to Buddhaghosa's) is not brought about by focusing on the actual body.

Why would anapana involve focusing on the body?
I thoght it's quiet common. Ajahn Lee, Ven Thanissaro, Leigh Brassington...or Frank k. here on Dhamma Wheel...They all teach body scaning, noticing various bodily sensations and energies. Focusing on the body in one way or another.

It all boils down to the meaning of the term kaya. I've thought you read it as a physical body, am I incorrect?

At the contrary, I thought that Buddhaghosa, or Ajahn Brahm, teach a method in which kaya means a body of breath...You let go of the physiacal body and senses. And later, by contemplating jhana factors and the nimitta, deal with the mind itself. So Buddhaghosa would be less body focused, than Leigh Brasington, for example.
I agree that Kaya means physical body and the jhana similes confirm this... but even though one would eventually become aware of the whole body and the pleasure therein and a certain amount of intention is used to permeate this... the Buddha never specified a concentration on the body as a way to get to that point in jhana.

All the nasal, body scanning, fairy light and chakra type techniques are not to be found in the suttas.

Now some would say... 'so what!'

But I have enough faith in the suttas to stick to the Buddha's words rather than the words of another... even allowing for slight disparities in translations, the suttas are fairly uniform in what they teach.
simsapa
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Re: Side effects of meditation

Post by simsapa »

Better read about it yourelf :smile: . But beware. This lady wrote a whole 150 page study about meditation effects.
The lady's name is Willoughby B. Britton. You can find the study referenced on this page as the first citation.

https://www.brown.edu/research/labs/bri ... blications

It's 28 pages. Now let's look at the study:
The target sample was intended to represent Americans seeking mindfulness meditation
training for the management or alleviation of clinical, sub-clinical and transdiagnostic
expressions
of affective disturbances, including anxiety, depression and stress...
Participants were English-speaking individuals, age 18–65, with mild-severe levels of depression
and persistently high levels of negative affect. Following MBP guidelines (Kuyken et al., 2012; Santorelli et al., 2017),
exclusion criteria included lifetime history of bipolar, psychotic, borderline or antisocial
personality disorders; repeated self-harm or organic brain damage; current depression in the
extremely severe range or active suicidal ideation; current panic, post-traumatic stress
disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder, eating disorder or substance abuse; current
psychotherapy; a regular meditation practice; or modification of antidepressant medication
in the last two months. See Britton et al. (2018) for details.
The study is excluding those with a regular meditation practice. Its data is based on a pool of people who already had "issues".

And what were people doing:
As reported in Britton et al. (2018), the treatment programs were three variants of
Mindfulness-Based Cognitive Therapy (MBCT): open monitoring (OM), focused attention
(FA), and standard MBCT.
The practices they were engaging in may have been substantially different from traditional ones, or the framing of those practices were different. I'd like to see a study of expert traditional Theravada meditators (e.g. forest monk meditators). I'm not arguing that there is a 0% chance of problems arising from meditation. I just think the issues that arise are quite multifaceted, and the details of an individual's practice, inclinations, and worldviews are too.
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Tennok
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Re: Side effects of meditation

Post by Tennok »

No 150 pages.

I know how it looks, simsapa. But I actually found a really big pdf, read a bit, scrolled, but I didn't download it. Shame. It was full of numbers and statistic, serious academic stuff. And now I can't find it, only the abstracts and revievs. Perhaps it got hiden behind some pay wall.

And I do think there are some of her more recent studies, which talk about daily mediatators. Not just those with prior depression.

But you are right,from the perspective of Dhamma practiocioner, it would be more interesting to see a research about meditation results on monks, who combine practice with Dhamma and proper monastic lifestyle. I firmly believe that Dhamma works btw., I m not a sceptic. The question is, how to practice :reading:

Btw., I've heard once, from an ex monk, my friend, that in Sri Lanka just 5 % of monks meditate. But i doubt it. Perhaps Sarath W knows more about that.

And few years ago I talked with the abbot of forrest monastery in Sri Lanka, who said, that hard core meditators like him, are seen as something excentric or even bizarre :smile: .

Historically, in Sri Lanka there was a tendency to keep smart monks busy with education, astronomy, beurocracy and irrigation planing, so they would "contibute" to the society nad the king. There were times of decline, when only the least intelligent and usefull ones were actually alowwed to meditate. Source: the old book "Anthropological study of the Forrest Monks", that I ve read in Nilambe's Retreat Center library .
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Tennok
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Re: Side effects of meditation

Post by Tennok »

BrokenBones post_id=636062 time=1627969795 user_id=15222]

All the nasal, body scanning, fairy light and chakra type techniques are not to be found in the suttas.
Fine, I respect your opinion, even if i like the nimitta & letting go approach of Ajahn Brahm...Even the fairy lights :smile: . And I do think it is grounded in suttas. The nimitta is an obvious "technical" aspect of strong ekkagatta and samadhi, so it's not often directly mentioned in suttas, i think. Perhaps it was becaouse it's appearance and experience varies. Nimitta being related to letting go, absence of hindrances and the piti sukha blisss...I see no danger in it.

But I do agree, that it was bit weird for Buddha to ommit such important info...and the fact that Buddhaghosa had to save a day and write about it in his book.

At least we both agree that the body scan is not a final destination here.

Good luck!
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Tennok
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Re: Side effects of meditation

Post by Tennok »

Tennok post_id=636088 time=1627978235 user_id=17598]
No 150 pages.
I found it, and downloaded this time.

Meditation and depression by Willoughby Britton. Can be downloaded at the Arizona Unviersity repository. 142 pages.


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... lvgr5pb5g_

At least it's not an article, but a complete phd disertation, so more serious. Lot of data about meditation effects on both depressed and healthy individuals.

Interesting thing is, this scholar was was focusing on more positive effects of meditation then - in 2006 - than in her more recent studies.

For sure more people meditate today, and perhaps different kind of people. In 2006 it was more of a niche.
simsapa
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Re: Side effects of meditation

Post by simsapa »

I found it, and downloaded this time.
Great, now I can see this one is around 150 pages long.
It was full of numbers and statistic, serious academic stuff. And now I can't find it, only the abstracts and reviews.
This one is again focusing on MBSR training, which is fine, but not the same as traditional Buddhist practices. I'd also like to know who exactly are included in the studies. It would be interesting to see if studying people from other cultures (i.e. from Buddhist countries) would make any difference. And from what I've skimmed, this dissertation is talking about positive effects, except where it admits that underlying conditions might lead to adverse results for meditators.
form
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Re: Side effects of meditation

Post by form »

Some people cannot handle the truth. So it is best they don't meditate and have to face it.
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Side effects of meditation

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

BrokenBones wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:49 am

I agree that Kaya means physical body and the jhana similes confirm this... but even though one would eventually become aware of the whole body and the pleasure therein and a certain amount of intention is used to permeate this... the Buddha never specified a concentration on the body as a way to get to that point in jhana.

The fully body awareness is as mentioned described in the suttas even at the level of the first jhana.
Furthermore, awareness of the body is mentioend early in the anapanasati sutta.
To say that focussing on body awareness is not a method to get there even though the suttas themselves say jhana is body awareness is a pure speculation.

As mentioned,the suttas give only a brief framework about the meditation practice which was largely left to teachers to hand down the details through experience.
The practice of those advanced on the path indicates that body awareness and how the breathing sensations permeate this is part of the path to jhana.
'Chakra points' need not be specified but some teachers speak about areas where tension and the breath sensations focus and gather...again this is why it's important to have guidance from advanced meditators who are living these practices to make fully sesne of the brief descriptions in suttas.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
JohnSo
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Re: Side effects of meditation

Post by JohnSo »

:oops: ... if I am not wrong a similar article can be found in the Cheetah House newsletter 'Lost in thought: The Psychological Risk of Meditation' and also 'Defining & Meditation related Adverse Effect on Mindfulness'

To make clearer, people tend to forget or going against their limitations. Indeed in the Mahasatipathana Sutta, we are introduced to the concept of body as physic and mind (the feeling and at last the thought). But it doesn't mean that we can go and choose any subject we like or need. It is in reality a step by step process as stated in the Anapanasati Sutta 4 Tetrads. We go step by step from The Body Physically (with just one point, several points or the whole of experience in every in and out breath), then if we have master it, move to the feeling but not any thought yet, etc. That is the real meditation process and the achievement had akready stated in the Rathavinitha Sutta.

Meditation should not be done hap hazardly, without the ability to concentrate we want overlord the mind straight to thought section. The only fruit that we can get is the Adverse Effect, being lost in thought as already stated in the article.

Someone, on the above section, have already mention it is not The Car but The Driver. If we learn to drive, start with a slow but sure approach. But if we are an experienced driver, please go to 160 mph if possible. Same with meditation, can we maintain a good concentration in just 1 point? Please, go ahead to next level, etc. But, if we cannot concentrate, even a minutes in 1 point, do not go straight against our thought, surely we lost during the head to head crash. Some people in the Suttas shown the can go ahead, indeed it is true, but people nowadays do not have enough wisdom as before (at the time of Buddha).

So in the end, Meditation is safe, as long as the Driver knows his or her own limitations.
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