Importance of atta and rebirth in meditation

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
Zenny
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Re: Importance of atta and rebirth in meditation

Post by Zenny »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 6:17 am
Zenny wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 5:45 am
You are taking for granted that your theory of "ultimate truth level" is true.
Its like saying let's see the truth in light of the ultimate truth of the resurrection of jesus.
Well,I don't believe in jesus or the 5 aggregates theory.
But I know I'm responsible right now for typing these words.
Do you want to dispute that?
Or is dependent origination responsible for My typing?
I dunno where you're intending to go with this.

1. This is a Buddhist, Dhamma forum. I speak Dhamma here, naturally assuming that Dhamma is true.

2. If you're not willing to accept it, fine, your own faith is your responsibility.

3. I cannot demonstrate that the ultimate truth of not self is true to you, only you can do it on your own via personal dedicated practise.

4. If you're unwilling to change your mind, unwilling to accept Buddhism as truth, why are you here really? Trying to pull us away from the Dhamma?

5. As for you typing this, as mentioned, this is sense of self, not disputed by no self theory. Your delusion of self is so strong, you naturally cannot see no self. There's no dispute.
My experience of self is absolutely real. And if you need proof then your feelings and responsibility for your deeds is more than
enough to illustrate this.
To think that your responsibility or your will is a delusion is remarkable.
Buddhist or non buddhist can see this goes against how you act in reality.
In other words what you are saying is just an incorrect idealism.
And what is wrong in a non buddhist engaging a Buddhist? Surely your faith is stronger than a robust discussion?
Last edited by Zenny on Sat Aug 14, 2021 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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DiamondNgXZ
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Re: Importance of atta and rebirth in meditation

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

Zenny wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 8:34 am
My experience of self is absolutely real. And if you need proof then your feelings and responsibility for your deeds is more than
enough to illustrate this.
To think that your responsibility or your will is a delusion is remarkable.
Buddhist or non buddhist can see this goes against how you act in reality.
In other words what you are saying is just an incorrect idealism.
And what is wrong in a non buddhist engaging a Buddhist? Surely your faith is stronger than a robust discussion?
Sure, as long as your real means: impermanent, suffering and ultimately not worth calling a self as who wants to identify things which are suffering and impermanent as self?

Normal usage of real means we think it's somehow permanent. What's permanent is reliable, hence we attach onto it. However it's due to the wrong perception of seeing impermanent things as permanent and attaching to it, suffering arises. What's impermanent and subject to suffering is not worth calling a self. So to continue holding onto impermanent, suffering things as self, to continue seeing it as permanent and happy, that's delusional. That's the ultimate source of suffering. That's not to say that there's no temporary happiness. The happiness I am talking about there is permanent happiness, the real happiness is permanent, and it's not found in the rounds of rebirth.

I don't see a need to engage with non-Buddhists or Buddhists who is not capable of learning, open their mind, or change their mind. It just waste my time, energy which I think is better spent on teaching those who wish to learn, who can grow and benefit from the Dhamma I can give. The Buddha also know that some people have too much dust in their eyes, he focus on those who has little dust in their eyes.

So thank you for being frank on your intentions. Good bye.
Zenny
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Re: Importance of atta and rebirth in meditation

Post by Zenny »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:01 am
Zenny wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 8:34 am
My experience of self is absolutely real. And if you need proof then your feelings and responsibility for your deeds is more than
enough to illustrate this.
To think that your responsibility or your will is a delusion is remarkable.
Buddhist or non buddhist can see this goes against how you act in reality.
In other words what you are saying is just an incorrect idealism.
And what is wrong in a non buddhist engaging a Buddhist? Surely your faith is stronger than a robust discussion?
Sure, as long as your real means: impermanent, suffering and ultimately not worth calling a self as who wants to identify things which are suffering and impermanent as self?

Normal usage of real means we think it's somehow permanent. What's permanent is reliable, hence we attach onto it. However it's due to the wrong perception of seeing impermanent things as permanent and attaching to it, suffering arises. What's impermanent and subject to suffering is not worth calling a self. So to continue holding onto impermanent, suffering things as self, to continue seeing it as permanent and happy, that's delusional. That's the ultimate source of suffering. That's not to say that there's no temporary happiness. The happiness I am talking about there is permanent happiness, the real happiness is permanent, and it's not found in the rounds of rebirth.

I don't see a need to engage with non-Buddhists or Buddhists who is not capable of learning, open their mind, or change their mind. It just waste my time, energy which I think is better spent on teaching those who wish to learn, who can grow and benefit from the Dhamma I can give. The Buddha also know that some people have too much dust in their eyes, he focus on those who has little dust in their eyes.

So thank you for being frank on your intentions. Good bye.
Well,life to me is beautiful. To you it's suffering,and judging those who say different.
Its a question of attitude and bravery.
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DiamondNgXZ
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Re: Importance of atta and rebirth in meditation

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

Zenny wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:05 am
Well,life to me is beautiful. To you it's suffering,and judging those who say different.
Its a question of attitude and bravery.
Maybe part of your issue is too that you never read introduction to Buddhism books.

Well, in certain super beginning stages, it could be marketed that way to use Buddhism makes life beautiful. However, that lens doesn't lead to the ending of all suffering and seeing the true beauty of nibbana.

It's only by seeing that there's no joy in the world, that's joyful. Oh what joy to finally realize that there's no joy in the world. This is a deep teaching. It requires deep insight and understanding into the first noble truth of suffering. Suffering has 3 types: course suffering, suffering due to change, suffering due to pervasive conditioning. It's because of suffering due to change that even temporary happiness is suffering.

To see life is beautiful can fall into delighting now here, now there, leading to craving and thus suffering.

It's ok if you're choosing to be different. I think you're the one judging, cause you're rattling people (Buddhists) in our own home and not with the intention to learn, merely to rattle us. If you're tolerant and open, you could very well leave us alone and live and let live.

Imagine if a non-Muslim goes to a Muslim forum and keep on claiming God doesn't exist, and openly admits that they would not want to learn how to adopt the Muslim faith, what's a reasonable attitude to treat such a person who waste the Muslim's time? You can replace Muslim and the doctrine to whatever religion/view/group you think you belong to. Golden rule is: don't do onto others what you don't wish others to do to yourself.

Or you go to an atheist forum, and keep on claiming God exists! See how the atheist reacts.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Importance of atta and rebirth in meditation

Post by Sam Vara »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:21 am
Or you go to an atheist forum, and keep on claiming God exists! See how the atheist reacts.
Relatively badly, I would expect, given the dearth of atheist teachings on reactivity.
Zenny
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Re: Importance of atta and rebirth in meditation

Post by Zenny »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:28 am
DiamondNgXZ wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:21 am
Or you go to an atheist forum, and keep on claiming God exists! See how the atheist reacts.
Relatively badly, I would expect, given the dearth of atheist teachings on reactivity.
It's this labelling and defensive mentality that's the issue.
As if claiming to be buddhist somehow makes someone immune to any criticism,and that you need a safe space.
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Zenny
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Re: Importance of atta and rebirth in meditation

Post by Zenny »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:21 am
Zenny wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:05 am
Well,life to me is beautiful. To you it's suffering,and judging those who say different.
Its a question of attitude and bravery.
Maybe part of your issue is too that you never read introduction to Buddhism books.

Well, in certain super beginning stages, it could be marketed that way to use Buddhism makes life beautiful. However, that lens doesn't lead to the ending of all suffering and seeing the true beauty of nibbana.

It's only by seeing that there's no joy in the world, that's joyful. Oh what joy to finally realize that there's no joy in the world. This is a deep teaching. It requires deep insight and understanding into the first noble truth of suffering. Suffering has 3 types: course suffering, suffering due to change, suffering due to pervasive conditioning. It's because of suffering due to change that even temporary happiness is suffering.

To see life is beautiful can fall into delighting now here, now there, leading to craving and thus suffering.

It's ok if you're choosing to be different. I think you're the one judging, cause you're rattling people (Buddhists) in our own home and not with the intention to learn, merely to rattle us. If you're tolerant and open, you could very well leave us alone and live and let live.

Imagine if a non-Muslim goes to a Muslim forum and keep on claiming God doesn't exist, and openly admits that they would not want to learn how to adopt the Muslim faith, what's a reasonable attitude to treat such a person who waste the Muslim's time? You can replace Muslim and the doctrine to whatever religion/view/group you think you belong to. Golden rule is: don't do onto others what you don't wish others to do to yourself.

Or you go to an atheist forum, and keep on claiming God exists! See how the atheist reacts.

I've probably studied buddhism longer and definately harder than most on this forum.
It's instructive how defensive and unable to really discuss that most people are.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Importance of atta and rebirth in meditation

Post by Sam Vara »

Zenny wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:54 am
Sam Vara wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:28 am
DiamondNgXZ wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:21 am
Or you go to an atheist forum, and keep on claiming God exists! See how the atheist reacts.
Relatively badly, I would expect, given the dearth of atheist teachings on reactivity.
It's this labelling and defensive mentality that's the issue.
As if claiming to be buddhist somehow makes someone immune to any criticism,and that you need a safe space.
Indeed. That's my point. I might expect atheists and those of other religions to be intolerant of different opinions, but not those who are practising what the Buddha taught.
DiamondNgXZ
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Re: Importance of atta and rebirth in meditation

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

Zenny wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:54 am

It's this labelling and defensive mentality that's the issue.
As if claiming to be buddhist somehow makes someone immune to any criticism,and that you need a safe space.
Everyone deserves safe space, that's what metta, loving kindness is about! This kind of comment by you seem to indicate that you enjoy poking people's safe space, to create suffering, disharmony, discontent. That's not very nice.

Valid criticism is ok, but your type of comments comes from persistently unable to move on from your position, so I don't see a point in your type of criticism. If your aim of criticism is to change the Dhamma, then just give up, it's not kind. The best criticism is one where we can improve together and become better Buddhists, human together. Eg. Buddhists should go eat more vegan! That's a valid criticism I have on Buddhism.
Zenny
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Re: Importance of atta and rebirth in meditation

Post by Zenny »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 11:06 am
Zenny wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:54 am
Sam Vara wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:28 am

Relatively badly, I would expect, given the dearth of atheist teachings on reactivity.
It's this labelling and defensive mentality that's the issue.
As if claiming to be buddhist somehow makes someone immune to any criticism,and that you need a safe space.
Indeed. That's my point. I might expect atheists and those of other religions to be intolerant of different opinions, but not those who are practising what the Buddha taught.
We partly agree for once! It's a miracle!
But it is obvious not many are doing as you opine.
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Zenny
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Re: Importance of atta and rebirth in meditation

Post by Zenny »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 11:08 am
Zenny wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:54 am

It's this labelling and defensive mentality that's the issue.
As if claiming to be buddhist somehow makes someone immune to any criticism,and that you need a safe space.
Everyone deserves safe space, that's what metta, loving kindness is about! This kind of comment by you seem to indicate that you enjoy poking people's safe space, to create suffering, disharmony, discontent. That's not very nice.

Valid criticism is ok, but your type of comments comes from persistently unable to move on from your position, so I don't see a point in your type of criticism. If your aim of criticism is to change the Dhamma, then just give up, it's not kind. The best criticism is one where we can improve together and become better Buddhists, human together. Eg. Buddhists should go eat more vegan! That's a valid criticism I have on Buddhism.

You might not see a point in my criticism,but I do.
You do realise you can become a better human even if your not a Buddhist? Or do you think only buddhists can be better humans?
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DiamondNgXZ
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Re: Importance of atta and rebirth in meditation

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

Zenny wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 11:13 am
You do realise you can become a better human even if your not a Buddhist? Or do you think only buddhists can be better humans?
Yes, Buddhist, non Buddhists, we all can become better humans together! The comma there in my previous comment was to include the larger set of humans which includes Buddhist.
Zenny
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Re: Importance of atta and rebirth in meditation

Post by Zenny »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 11:39 am
Zenny wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 11:13 am
You do realise you can become a better human even if your not a Buddhist? Or do you think only buddhists can be better humans?
Yes, Buddhist, non Buddhists, we all can become better humans together! The comma there in my previous comment was to include the larger set of humans which includes Buddhist.
So what's your problem when a non buddhist thinks the anatta doctrine is false? You want us to all improve but we can't criticise what we see as wrong?
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Re: Importance of atta and rebirth in meditation

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 11:28 pm
auto wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:38 pm [
Doing that you eventually will break into the space where's only the unmoving awareness. There are plenty of stages before tho.
If it’s unmoving awareness how does anyone know about it? Unmoving means not active, as in frozen.
There is awareness, awareness of said awareness and there is also the third thing, a function. Many know the awareness of awareness but not know how to practice it or why it is useful for to start knowing about the function.

This temporal state i described is first person experience what will give you a distinction between what is immutable and what is not. By that knowing you know what is important and disregard the other from a top down experience, no need to go through it again. A knowledge how to extract the spirit from the matter which then will gather by discipline.
The initial dry awareness will be a vapor which what gathered enough will allow the function. The function is performed number of times before the vapor coagulates, this is a food level at this point.

Here's the quick connection on the fly using abhidhammattha as a base,
These three are different types of citta: restraint, result and function. Results are the vipāka's of restraints. Funtion(kiriyā) will be experienced instead of the aforementioned.

this is just to air some possibilities to otherwise silly simplicity of saying over and over sabbe dhamma anatta like it will do the practice for the person.
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Re: Importance of atta and rebirth in meditation

Post by auto »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 12:46 am
auto wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:12 pm Sense of self is as real as tangible touch. I have no idea what you mean by atta, but i know if you deny atta you are no-selfer who tries to skip practice.
Due to delusion of self, there's
1. Sense of self.
2. Thinking of the 5 aggregates as belonging to self, or self is in it, or 5 aggregates are in self, or self is 5 aggregates. Thus, you cannot think of feeling as mere feelings, you'll automatically add: my feelings.
I don't add feelings are mine, they come mine if the pain goes above the threshold, when it becomes a struggle. Which is a first noble truth, no?
satta(strong clinging) will give arise to existence(bhava)
DiamondNgXZ wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 12:46 amThe practise of Dhamma is to try not to add on the self, but to see things as they really are. Feelings as feelings, body as mere body, not my body.
"to see things as they are" is conformity with the truth(noble truths)
DiamondNgXZ wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 12:46 amIt's the story telling that we add onto the raw mindfulness of seeing 5 aggregates and then adding the notion of me, mine, I into it which is tried to be eradicated, but it can only be done via deep meditation, and applying the no self perception to the 5 aggregates and everything. Mere intellectual understanding doesn't alter the functionality of still regarding the 5 aggregates as self.
Thinking that the feelings are mine is different case, it is peaceful abiding 'here and now' experienced with the higher thinking(abhicintenta). You are just looking too much into what is said and not try to see what is meant by what were said.
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