The risks of abnormal lust arising as a result of meditation

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
LaughingBannermen
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The risks of abnormal lust arising as a result of meditation

Post by LaughingBannermen »

On drafting this post I realize that the subject is too personal to me to be succinct, so I'll open with my primary questions and the rest of the post will be background and context.
  • What do you think is a safe way of developing one's practice in such a way that postpones the arising of latent hindrances until after tranquility has been sufficiently developed?
  • Can anyone describe a time in their practice where they were both greatly challenged by lust, were also completely successful in neutralizing such feelings to such an extent that there is no pressure to express them?
A couple of years ago I posted threads explaining my unique situation. Since that time I experienced an upheaval in my psyche whereupon the latent urges of my sex drive became tortuous, less because of their intensity and more because of their target. I will list the threads for those curious, for those those who are not; my sexuality is exclusively paedophilic; all attempts at physical relief with other subjects fail, and my single attempt at that subject was sufficiently demoralizing that I elected to struggle with the insomnia and anxiety instead. Anyway, after a protracted struggle with the medical system in my province I eventually secured androgen reducing medications which have completely eliminated the relentless urges and invasive mental images, enabling me to forgo my benzodiazepines prescription.

I would very much like to resume Theravada meditation and rid myself of this mutation once and for all, however I am concerned by reports from practitioners on the awakening of latent karmic tendencies during deep meditation, producing such phenomena as Ajahn Chah's vivid week long experience of lustful mental images and intense bodily sensations.

His claim to have overcome these through having simply "endured" them would surely be inspiring for someone with more blameless sexual tendencies. I might even attempt such a thing if my search for reassurances of complete cessation of lust had turned up any results. I really don't know what it's like to live in a Buddhist community with elder monks who are close to arahantship, I only know what it's like to search the Buddhist Stack Exchange for this question, and have all such questions answered with admonishments to "mindfully integrate" sexuality into ones life at the liberal end and forever bearing it as one would a backpain on the conservative end. Or, Googling "reducing sexual feeling meditation" and every variation of such keywords as search parameters, and finding nothing but blogposts and articles about how meditation can spice up your sex life.

But I digress. I have two paths before me.
  • I can postpone my meditation until after I can secure castration surgery from a sympathetic doctor and an even more sympathetic money lender, as my androgen reducing regimen is far from perfect; there is still a sizeable amount of primary sex hormone in my blood. For the skeptical: I have read and can provide copied PDF's of the multiple studies that vindicate the idea of complete sex hormone deprivation neutralizing lust, including two case studies involving fMRI of the brains of sex offenders on such treatment.
  • I can continue meditating, but in a more restrained manner. I can emphasize Focused Attentional, tranquility exercises and not touch vipassana until much, much later.
I am eager to explore tranquil states of renunciation. I know what that is and what it means, to be aware of an excited emotion, a tranquil emotion, and do the psychological movement of choosing the latter over the former, out of disenchantment and disillusionment. I know that action, have done it before, and reaped temporary benefits for tens of minutes afterwards. However, I also know these urges that I called "spiking sexual energy", and that they are unlike any lust I have known before. The feeling of corrupt affection and pleasure pierces right through anything I have like a bullet through drywall and has me reeling in minutes. Sitting with an aversion emotion and watching is expend itself against me always felt great when I did it as a Zen practitioner. Sitting with an attraction emotion such as lust towards children is an exercise in being chewed by the Jaws of Hell itself, and I was always struck by the mortal fear that I would never be the same person after fully experiencing it to my core.

So that's the whole of it. Here again are the driving questions of this post.
  • What do you think is a safe way of developing one's practice in such a way that postpones the arising of latent hindrances until after tranquility has been sufficiently developed?
  • Can anyone describe a time in their practice where they were both greatly challenged by lust, were also completely successful in neutralizing such feelings to such an extent that there is no pressure to express them?
Thank you for your time.
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: The risks of abnormal lust arising as a result of meditation

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Attend for some depth psychotherapy if you are not already doing so.

Develop all around Sila

There are meditations to overcome lust.
Meditate on the repulsive to counter arising of lust.
Your motivation to overcome this problem depends on your willingness and sincerity to do this as a regular meditation practice.

https://drarisworld.wordpress.com/2020/ ... a-bhavana/




You don't need to mutilate your own body.

Reflect on the dangers of samsara to add motivation to practice and not engage in or entertain thoughts associated with sexual misconduct that could drag one lower to unimaginable suffering.

https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn ... .than.html

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
befriend
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Re: The risks of abnormal lust arising as a result of meditation

Post by befriend »

It's one of the five hindrances, desire, I'll will, mental tiredness physical tiredness, restlessness worry or doubt. For all five hindrances an antidote to them is to know them with awareness be aware of it with your mindfulness and doing this to any of the hindrances they diminish right there as your paying close attention to it. Try and see for yourself. When your mindful of a hindrance your nature just dissipates it and when a wholesome object is in your mind and your aware/mindful of it it increases in wholesomeness. I don't know if this will work for you or not.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
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cappuccino
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Re: The risks of abnormal lust arising as a result of meditation

Post by cappuccino »

:candle:
Last edited by cappuccino on Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:13 am, edited 5 times in total.
SarathW
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Re: The risks of abnormal lust arising as a result of meditation

Post by SarathW »

Just observe the arising of lust and contemplate on gratification, drawbacks and the escape.
In other words contemplate on Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta.
Generally, some teachers recommend contemplating the foulness (Asubha) of the body.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Pondera
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Re: The risks of abnormal lust arising as a result of meditation

Post by Pondera »

Jesus said, “if your hand causes you to sin, then cut it off and throw it into the fire.”

He also said, “if you’re eye causes you to sin, gouge it out.”

You seem to think the root of your problem is your penis, when it’s actually your habit of grabbing your penis while you search for images of children.

Solution. Preface. Your memory banks are filled with images you find erotic. Your habit of continually pursuing those same images reinforces that memory and is the source of your repeated desire. Therefore #1. Stop searching for those images.

#2. There’s no rule saying that because you have a “sexual urge or frustration” you should “remedy” it by rubbing one off.

I go for weeks without acknowledging my sexual urges. I also avoid imagery which may make those urges stronger.

So … stop masturbating! Or at least let it build up for a week so that you don’t need to delve into objects of sexual gratification that leave you with an immense feeling of guilt (ie. one that has you suggesting to your self that you should cut off your penis).

All of us have sexual urges. Not all of us will search out the kindling to light the fire. And not all of us act on those sexual urges.

If you want to feel less guilt just stop searching for the images. Also, reduce your frequency of masturbation to eventually zero. Problem solved. No need to cut off your penis (unless you have an ulterior motive for cutting off your penis).
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
LaughingBannermen
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Re: The risks of abnormal lust arising as a result of meditation

Post by LaughingBannermen »

Pondera wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:04 am Jesus said, “if your hand causes you to sin, then cut it off and throw it into the fire.”

He also said, “if you’re eye causes you to sin, gouge it out.”

You seem to think the root of your problem is your penis
,
Castration surgery refers to the removal of one's testicles for androgen deprivation. Testosterone is not produced by the penis.
as my androgen reducing regimen is far from perfect; there is still a sizeable amount of primary sex hormone in my blood.
Next, you say
Pondera wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:04 amwhen it’s actually your habit of grabbing your penis while you search for images of children.
I have never seen actual child pornograophy in my life. As for habits, I believe I explained that this was a single attempt.
and my single attempt at that subject was sufficiently demoralizing that I elected to struggle with the insomnia and anxiety instead.
I have decided not to read the rest of your post.
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Pondera
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Re: The risks of abnormal lust arising as a result of meditation

Post by Pondera »

LaughingBannermen wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:43 am
Pondera wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:04 am Jesus said, “if your hand causes you to sin, then cut it off and throw it into the fire.”

He also said, “if you’re eye causes you to sin, gouge it out.”

You seem to think the root of your problem is your penis
,
Castration surgery refers to the removal of one's testicles for androgen deprivation. Testosterone is not produced by the penis.
as my androgen reducing regimen is far from perfect; there is still a sizeable amount of primary sex hormone in my blood.
Next, you say
Pondera wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:04 amwhen it’s actually your habit of grabbing your penis while you search for images of children.
I have never seen actual child pornograophy in my life. As for habits, I believe I explained that this was a single attempt.
and my single attempt at that subject was sufficiently demoralizing that I elected to struggle with the insomnia and anxiety instead.
I have decided not to read the rest of your post.
How do you know that your sexuality is “exclusively paedophilic” if you’ve attempted the subject once?

I apologize for missing that detail, but you’re the one claiming an exclusively paedophilic sexuality. I just assumed.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
LaughingBannermen
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Re: The risks of abnormal lust arising as a result of meditation

Post by LaughingBannermen »

Pondera wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:11 am is “exclusively paedophilic” if you’ve attempted the subject once?
LaughingBannermen wrote:all attempts at physical relief with other subjects fail
That is to say, when this pressure, tension, physical tingling and intrusive mental imagery arose, I attempted physical relief with material involving adults, and it did nothing. I could go 6 times in 2 minutes, climax without any emissions each time, and then the the urge would come back just as strong. I would attempt to use my imagination involving adults and their faces would morph in my minds eye to become child-like. I would attempt to focus on just the feelings in my body while relieving myself, and while this did work, for the hours afterwards and the next day I had to suppress the intense afterglow and satisfaction I felt, preventing the mental imagery from being associated with it.

The attempt I refer to was using drawings on a site that catered to gay men. I simply looked for a drawing with unrealistic proportions for an adult and used that, thinking that it was better to settle on a drawing than to have mental images of real children flitting across my consciousness. This belief was mistaken and I decided not to repeat it.

Ah. Look, of course I made more mistakes like that as a teenager, but that was around 10 odd years ago, and my behaviour even then was quite restrained and largely the product of misguided assumptions about what sort of drawings I was seeing. Many of these images are marketed as ordinary erotica and you don't even realize their true nature until after you've finished and had a sober second look. From there it's just revisiting the images to check what your feelings are. The prevailing attitude in the West is that sexual preferences are innate and fixed for life, so there is a mortal need to discover the truth about one's self rather than deny it. I wasn't relieving myself physically when I did so. As for more recently, I was already spacing out my sessions of relief by 2-6 weeks at a time in the 8 months leading up to when these episodes of sexual energy started happening, all of which involved erotic literature involving adults. This is very far removed from the chronic masturbator of your assumption.
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Pondera
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Re: The risks of abnormal lust arising as a result of meditation

Post by Pondera »

LaughingBannermen wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:36 am
Pondera wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:11 am is “exclusively paedophilic” if you’ve attempted the subject once?
LaughingBannermen wrote:all attempts at physical relief with other subjects fail
That is to say, when this pressure, tension, physical tingling and intrusive mental imagery arose, I attempted physical relief with material involving adults, and it did nothing. I could go 6 times in 2 minutes, climax without any emissions each time, and then the the urge would come back just as strong. I would attempt to use my imagination involving adults and their faces would morph in my minds eye to become child-like. I would attempt to focus on just the feelings in my body while relieving myself, and while this did work, for the hours afterwards and the next day I had to suppress the intense afterglow and satisfaction I felt, preventing the mental imagery from being associated with it.

The attempt I refer to was using drawings on a site that catered to gay men. I simply looked for a drawing with unrealistic proportions for an adult and used that, thinking that it was better to settle on a drawing than to have mental images of real children flitting across my consciousness. This belief was mistaken and I decided not to repeat it.

Ah. Look, of course I made more mistakes like that as a teenager, but that was around 10 odd years ago, and my behaviour even then was quite restrained and largely the product of misguided assumptions about what sort of drawings I was seeing. Many of these images are marketed as ordinary erotica and you don't even realize their true nature until after you've finished and had a sober second look. From there it's just revisiting the images to check what your feelings are. The prevailing attitude in the West is that sexual preferences are innate and fixed for life, so there is a mortal need to discover the truth about one's self rather than deny it. I wasn't relieving myself physically when I did so. As for more recently, I was already spacing out my sessions of relief by 2-6 weeks at a time in the 8 months leading up to when these episodes of sexual energy started happening, all of which involved erotic literature involving adults. This is very far removed from the chronic masturbator of your assumption.
Well. Look. I’m not here to judge you. I sympathize with your struggles. Intrusive thoughts are difficult to deal with. I have a fair share of my own. I’ve learned to deal with them through meditation (I’m a schizophrenic - I hear voices. Meditation helps me calm the voices).

At my age (40) I don’t see a need to release sexual tension when it arises. I’ve gotten to a stage where it can be there for weeks and I simply won’t act on it. After a while you forget it’s there. There’s no evidence in Science to suggest that a build up of semen is detrimental to the body if not released. On the contrary, all of that built up testosterone ends up doing other things besides producing spermatozoa.

If you really feel like castration, no one should be able to make that decision besides you. Interestingly enough, eunuchs cannot join the monastic community. It’s a rule laid down by the Buddha.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
LaughingBannermen
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Re: The risks of abnormal lust arising as a result of meditation

Post by LaughingBannermen »

I decided to delete my replies to the other posts, as my mind was becoming too preoccupied with the anticipated discussion. It is better to have a clear mind than to be needlessly overstimulated.
Mr. Seek
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Re: The risks of abnormal lust arising as a result of meditation

Post by Mr. Seek »

This is a touchy subject, with many facets to it. I think I'm capable of giving you some advice, but I just don't know the correct angle to approach this from. With complicated problems you need complicated solutions. It wouldn't be straight-forward, nor would it be a guaranteed fix.

What worked for my problems with lust: listening to teachers about the matter, monitoring and restraining food intake, brahmachariya, sense restraint, experimenting with asubha contemplation, and refraining from concentration (any and all forms of meditation where I 'do' something). I haven't stopped meditating, I just meditate with the most simple, straightforward methods, e.g. by doing nothing. Haven't rid myself of the 'problem' completely I think, but I'm enjoying the results so far.

I can say more about the matter but I'm writing from a phone, so it's a huge burden for my fingers. Have you found the right answers to your questions yet or do you need further advice? And good luck by the way in your striving.
LaughingBannermen
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Re: The risks of abnormal lust arising as a result of meditation

Post by LaughingBannermen »

Mr. Seek wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:17 am This is a touchy subject, with many facets to it. I think I'm capable of giving you some advice, but I just don't know the correct angle to approach this from. With complicated problems you need complicated solutions. It wouldn't be straight-forward, nor would it be a guaranteed fix.

What worked for my problems with lust: listening to teachers about the matter, monitoring and restraining food intake, brahmachariya, sense restraint, experimenting with asubha contemplation, and refraining from concentration (any and all forms of meditation where I 'do' something). I haven't stopped meditating, I just meditate with the most simple, straightforward methods, e.g. by doing nothing. Haven't rid myself of the 'problem' completely I think, but I'm enjoying the results so far.

I can say more about the matter but I'm writing from a phone, so it's a huge burden for my fingers. Have you found the right answers to your questions yet or do you need further advice? And good luck by the way in your striving.
I would like to hear more from you. Your angle and approach so far is beautiful. You are both advising from the heart of personal experience and have not misunderstood me. I have otherwise gotten rather unempathetic "just be mindfully aware of it" as if sexual thoughts about children are exactly as
psychologically easy to bear as more blameless forms of lust. Though, I have a problem with the Asubha meditation on principle, as it merely has us replace one cognitive distortion (lust) with another cognitive distortion (disgust). I would rather compromise my body through castration, than to compromise my mind in that way. In this way lust will be weakened to such an extent that I can use equanimity and disenchantment-with-pleasure without fear of being overwhelmed.
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Re: The risks of abnormal lust arising as a result of meditation

Post by Inedible »

The real question is about how strengthening concentration can have side effects. It can result in content from deep in the mind coming to the surface because suppression is not a long term solution. It can also cause the mind to latch on to negative thoughts, emotions, perceptions, and memories more strongly. The best thing to do is to continue to master concentration anyway, because experiencing pleasure which does not come from sense contact is a good way to reduce craving and clinging. That is part of why you can be a Once Returner without jhana but still need it to be a Nonreturner. The Four Foundations of Mindfulness generate the seven awakening factors, and those remove the five hindrances. You could choose to examine the five aggregates in daily life as a method of developing the Four Foundations of Mindfulness. A daily metta practice would be a good addition, too. Then develop jhana after weakening the five hindrances for some time.
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Re: The risks of abnormal lust arising as a result of meditation

Post by Mr. Seek »

LaughingBannermen wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:19 pm I have otherwise gotten rather unempathetic "just be mindfully aware of it" as if ... as
psychologically easy to bear as more blameless forms of lust.
I think what they're trying to say is just subtly ignore said temptations and try to go with the flow of life. Which is OK, technically, but needs "more" to work, e.g. you'd need to channel all of that momentum and energy into something else, maybe something wholesome, like a hobby, some sort of activity that can "distract" you, "keep you busy", etc.
LaughingBannermen wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:19 pmI have a problem with the Asubha meditation on principle, as it merely has us replace one cognitive distortion (lust) with another cognitive distortion (disgust).
To a degree, you're correct. Asubha contemplation is merely an attempt to explore and swtich from one perception to another. It won't solve problems completely. Even Ajahn Maha Boowa said it--the anagami isn't obsessed with contrived things such as disgust or repulsion from women, food, corpses, etc. But still, such contemplations are worthwhile for someone who is on the initial stages of the path. it's a valuable tool and skill, the ability to play with perception to suit your needs and interests. By suggesting it I'm not saying get obsessed with it or practice it formally. All I'm saying is give it a try. Think about the matter for some time, ponder it, consider how everything we find beautiful has very awful, gory aspects to it. Think about the 31 parts of the body, the 9 charnel ground contemplations, etc. Explore and play with perception in your day-to-day life.

Asubha should work at reducing some of the lust, so long as you don't get obsessed with it. Then, when it works, I'd suggest trying out even more subtler forms of playing with perception. For example, you could try contemplating and practicing non-multiplicity, non-objectification, etc. Basically, ponder on whether your sense of identity is real, on whether other beings are real, etc. Ponder whether concepts such as pleasure, pain, beauty, ugliness, form, beings, attractive, unttractive, etc., are real and 100% fact. With time you'll come to the conclusion that they're illusiory, products of perception, mere perceptions--they exist steadfast only when you insist on them, only when you objectify, only when you see a separation between "me" and "them", only when you pick between appealing and unappealing.

Then, ideally, at one point you'll be become dispassionate toward perceptions because of how pliable and unreliable they are; they'll be tiring and seem fake to you--and at that point you'll just drop them altogether once and for all; what you were taught, what you've heard, what you've assumed, etc., all of it. Then, unlike previously, you won't see anything tempting, yet you'll see. You won't see anything attractive or unattractive, yet you'll see. When you walk down the sidewalk, the pebbles on the ground would have equal value to you as the women walking beside you. You seeing an elderly woman that is as ugly as a corpse, or you seeing a beautiful young woman at the peak of her fertlity--it wouldn't matter to you, because at that point, in you, there won't be concepts such as "me", "them", "beings", "attractive", "unattractive", "female", "male", "old", "young", etc.

It's all about testing the limits of perception and then eventually ditching it altogether. As with asubha, you could also experiment with perceptions such as "everything is beautiful and pleasant", "there is nothing; nothingness", "everything is dead or dying", "everything is light", "everything is stressful", "everything is one", etc., whatever works for you and makes the most sense.
LaughingBannermen wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:19 pmI would rather compromise my body through castration, than to compromise my mind in that way. In this way lust will be weakened to such an extent that I can use equanimity and disenchantment-with-pleasure without fear of being overwhelmed.
You're making assumptions based on what you think and or have heard. There is absolutely no guarantee.

I would be wary of compromising "your" body, whether through drugs or surgical interventions. These are not solutions, but cover-up attempts. Try to get at the root of the problem, the causes. Even if you do find a method to temporarily suspend these problems, instead of solving them, there's always the chance of them re-appearing again in the future, with the same or different (even worse) forms.

You've become obsessed with some perception, for one reason or another, perhaps unintentionally. No problem, now it's time to address the root--perception, objectification, classification, etc. No, there is no guarantee you'll succeed in these attempts to take back control, but you may as well try. And, also, meditation may or may not reveal more of these issues. Just like good medicine, it may very well sting and hurt--or it may not. Also, like I said previously, this is a multi-faceted issue and thus needs a multi-faceted solution; my brief summary here is not meant to be a fully fleshed out solution, it's just one of many advices.

Another thing, also--be wary of active, concentrative methods of meditation, as they may arouse the heat in you faster than other types of meditation, esp. if you're not practicing them properly, or if you don't practice celibacy and sense restraint on a deep, constant level. For example, I found certain types of breath and energy-based meditation methods to be especially troubling when constantly dealing with high levels of dense lust.

What do you think, does any of this make sense? I don't know it all, but still. Refer back to my previous post for a summary on how I deal with stuff like this. Hope this helps.
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