Controlling breath instead of observing

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
JohnSo
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Re: Controlling breath instead of observing

Post by JohnSo »

So how to observe not to control.

First, breath is an automated process of our body. We eat. We walk. We talk. Just name every activitie we do, breath is automatically there, without we try to control it.

Secondly, if we purposely build attention on our breath, automatically your consciousness will take control of the process.

You cannot beat it, it is the mind that automatically take control of it. It is natural. And it is the challenge, we face during meditation. Thanks god (? ... sorry I just cannot any word that maybe suitable to change those word), we still have the awareness that the mind start to take control of it. Therefore, every time the mind start taking control, just be aware that the mind has start to exerts its dominion over the breath or the body. And automatically it is changing. It needs our patience. Do it again and again. Persist and you shall succeed one day.

Good luck
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Tennok
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Re: Controlling breath instead of observing

Post by Tennok »

According to Immanuel Kant, every act of knowing alters the object, which is known.

I found it especially true and noticable in the meditation. And I 've noticed, that just the act of being aware of the breath, may bring some subtle forms of control, or just intention toward the breath. To stop controling you need to loosen this natural grip. It's resembles something that Taoists call Vu Vei ( I guess that's the spelling), acting without any intention. :sage: .

It's not like controling breath is always bad. As people already wrote here, there are some beneficial methods which adovocate breath control. But I just enjoy the meditatation based on letting go. It's the essence of Dhamma in my book, cutting the root of Tanha, Dukkha and Bhavana.

Our mind is often a contol freak, it focuses on survival, judging and choosing. It doesn't like to loose control, so there can be various sensations produced by the mind, to stop us from letting go. Like pain, or even sufflocation. But when it actually stops...it' can be a great relief.

And hindrances often manifest as desire to get something form the breath - like jhana - or as an ill will toward it, or sensual attachment to it. According to some teachers, active pursuing of the Samadhi, is a biggest obstacle, on the way toward it.

So when you notice the control, drop it. RInse and repeat. Just like when you notice, that you are thinking. Try to look for this paradoxical moment, when there is still act of knowing, but the agent of the knowing has no power and no influence. And there is just pure, shinny knowing left. That's a nice taste of anatta.
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bodom
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Re: Controlling breath instead of observing

Post by bodom »

I struggled with this for a long time. I have found it helpful to not immediately turn my attention to the breath when first sitting down and instead will either do some reflections on the Buddha, or Metta or just whole body awareness and let the breath find it's own rhythm. Then when the mind and body is calmed I will turn attention to the breath.

I also tend to keep a broad focus on the body even after turning to the breath and allow it to be part of the whole body experience. If I try to focus exclusively on the breath alone I tend to clamp down on it and find the attention becomes too narrow and it causes tension.

Hope this helps.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

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Re: Controlling breath instead of observing

Post by Spiny Norman »

bodom wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:46 am I struggled with this for a long time. I have found it helpful to not immediately turn my attention to the breath when first sitting down and instead will either do some reflections on the Buddha, or Metta or just whole body awareness and let the breath find it's own rhythm. Then when the mind and body is calmed I will turn attention to the breath.

I also tend to keep a broad focus on the body even after turning to the breath and allow it to be part of the whole body experience. If I try to focus exclusively on the breath alone I tend to clamp down on it and find the attention becomes too narrow and it causes tension.

Hope this helps.

:anjali:
:goodpost:
Yes, a wider attention on bodily sensation can take the pressure off, so to speak. I often use the sensation of weight.
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Tennok
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Re: Controlling breath instead of observing

Post by Tennok »

bodom wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:46 am
I also tend to keep a broad focus on the body even after turning to the breath and allow it to be part of the whole body experience. If I try to focus exclusively on the breath alone I tend to clamp down on it and find the attention becomes too narrow and it causes tension.
I do something very similiar. I guess breath is a relatively subtle meditation object. It's bit like a cat. You can't force it to sit on your lap, but if you wait calmly, cat may some to you.

Perhaps it has something to do with tanha. Craving for calmness never works.
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Pondera
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Re: Controlling breath instead of observing

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aloneseeker wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:47 am while watching the breath, I start controlling it, when its shallow it becomes deep and then I try to stop the breath to slow down its just haywire ...

I am focusing on the place where breath meets the internals of nostrils ... that sensation I am trying to focus on
Shift your focus to your breathing diaphragm. Use the breath as a tool to calm the body; to calm the mind.

Don’t get sucked into the idea that the goal of anapanasati is noting breath and thoughts. It’s not.

The first step is to recognize that your breathing. The second step is to relax the body.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Aloka
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Re: Controlling breath instead of observing

Post by Aloka »

Pondera wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:31 pm [

Shift your focus to your breathing diaphragm. Use the breath as a tool to calm the body; to calm the mind.

Don’t get sucked into the idea that the goal of anapanasati is noting breath and thoughts. It’s not.

The first step is to recognize that your breathing. The second step is to relax the body.

Yes indeed!.... breathe.....relax.....be kind.

:anjali:

.
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Tennok
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Re: Controlling breath instead of observing

Post by Tennok »

Pondera wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:31 pm
Don’t get sucked into the idea that the goal of anapanasati is noting breath and thoughts. It’s not.

The first step is to recognize that your breathing. The second step is to relax the body.
I was wondering abot Anapanasati sutta... Noting - or being mindfull of the breath - is a central part of the breath meditation, as it is usually thaught. It's not being called body meditation for a reason. it's supposed to lead to calming of the mind and intraction between body, breath and mind. Not to mention the educational display of kilesa.

So the goal is not just relaxing of the body. I know you didn't say that.

Do you think, Pondera, that the breath is not being noted at all, in the later tethrads of the Anapanasati sutta? Just rapture, releasing of the mind, seven factors, four frames, etc? . Becouse breath is still being mentioned, to the very end of the sutta.

Thanx and metta
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Pondera
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Re: Controlling breath instead of observing

Post by Pondera »

Tennok wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:16 pm
Pondera wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:31 pm
Don’t get sucked into the idea that the goal of anapanasati is noting breath and thoughts. It’s not.

The first step is to recognize that your breathing. The second step is to relax the body.
I was wondering abot Anapanasati sutta... Noting - or being mindfull of the breath - is a central part of the breath meditation, as it is usually thaught. It's not being called body meditation for a reason. it's supposed to lead to calming of the mind and intraction between body, breath and mind. Not to mention the educational display of kilesa.

So the goal is not just relaxing of the body. I know you didn't say that.

Do you think, Pondera, that the breath is not being noted at all, in the later tethrads of the Anapanasati sutta? Just rapture, releasing of the mind, seven factors, four frames, etc? . Becouse breath is still being mentioned, to the very end of the sutta.

Thanx and metta
That’s a good question. Forgive me if I go on a few tangents.

The Buddha first states “he knows he is breathing in and out”.

This can mean a lot of different things for different people.

You already know how brutal and savage crucifixion is, but read what Jesus went through
Crucifixion is a method of capital punishment in which the victim is tied or nailed to a large wooden beam and left to hang until eventual death from exhaustion and asphyxiation. It was used as a punishment by the Romans, among others.
So, when you’re crucified you eventually become so exhausted that you can no longer take another breath. What does that mean?

To me, that means you can’t use the muscles in your lower back and abdomen to move your breathing diaphragm. I imagine that when Jesus was crucified he likely knew exactly what breathing was. Anyway …

I won’t derail the practice of notation. As far as I know the point of notation of feelings, perceptions, and thoughts is to quietly dispose of them. And to derail the practice of noting would be to derail most of the forest traditions. Anyway…

When I “know” I am breathing I am only interested in the solar plexus and the breathing diaphragm. Here’s where my beliefs become fringe …

There is a relationship between the centre of the mind and the breathing diaphragm. Relaxing the breathing diaphragm relaxes the nerve bundles in the centre of the mind/brain.

Doing this relaxes the sacral chakra. Doing this fills the body with a sensation of neither pleasure nor pain (adukkhaasukha). Not a “neutral” feeling. An all pervasive “concept” (if you will) of the breath body (ie. the wind element). Anyway …

The first four jhanas are “rupa” jhanas. And I believe the Buddha very intentionally listed rupa as “earth, water, fire, and wind”. Each rupa getting more immaterial as they go up.

So, when I engage in anapanasati I believe I am meditating on the wind kasina. I don’t do any noting. I just let certain hibitions go and enjoy the results. Just my take on it.

🧐
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confusedlayman
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Re: Controlling breath instead of observing

Post by confusedlayman »

keep ur body still (without shaking like statue) and then focus on breathing in chest region.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Controlling breath instead of observing

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I actually quite like the Mahāsāṃghika description of Mindfulness of Breathing.
"The Bhagavān told him, “Rāhula, suppose there is a bhikṣu who is happy being alone in quietude. In a secluded place, he corrects his body, corrects his intention, and sits cross-legged. Without any other thoughts, he fastens his mind on the tip of his nose. [1] When there is a long breath out, he is also aware of the long breath. [2] When there is a long breath in, he is also aware of the long breath. [3] When there is a short breath out, he is also aware of the short breath. [4] When there is a short breath in, he is also aware of the short breath. [5] When there is a cold breath out, he is also aware of the cold breath. [6] When there is a cold breath in, he is also aware of the cold breath. [7] When there is a warm breath out, he is also aware of the warm breath. [8] When there is a warm breath in, he is also aware of the warm breath. [9] He completely contemplates the in-breaths and out-breaths of the body, aware of them all. [10] When there is breathing, he also is aware of its presence. [11] When there is no breathing, he is also aware of its absence. [12] If there is an out-breath conditioned by the mind, he is aware that the out-breath was conditioned by the mind. [13] If there is an in-breath conditioned by the mind, he is aware that the in-breath was conditioned by the mind. Thusly, Rāhula, one is able to cultivate the practice of Ānāpānasmṛti, to eliminate every notion of worry and sorrow, obtain the great fruit, and taste the sweet nectar of immortality.”
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Tennok
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Re: Controlling breath instead of observing

Post by Tennok »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:48 am I actually quite like the Mahāsāṃghika description of Mindfulness of Breathing.
Nice Version. Thanx for posting it. I like that it mentiones the "absence of breath." In some meditation methods it marks an important stage of transition from the the breath & body as an object, to jhana factors and nimitta.
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Tennok
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Re: Controlling breath instead of observing

Post by Tennok »

Pondera wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:06 am
You already know how brutal and savage crucifixion is, but read what Jesus went through
Crucifixion is a method of capital punishment in which the victim is tied or nailed to a large wooden beam and left to hang until eventual death from exhaustion and asphyxiation. It was used as a punishment by the Romans, among others.
So, when you’re crucified you eventually become so exhausted that you can no longer take another breath. What does that mean?

To me, that means you can’t use the muscles in your lower back and abdomen to move your breathing diaphragm. I imagine that when Jesus was crucified he likely knew exactly what breathing was. Anyway …
So Jesus was doing a very intense, sufflocated anapana on the cross? I never thought about that.

Btw., Jesus death used to be a very poular meditation topic. Which means more like "recollecting" in a Christan context. In medieval Europe, the used to have detailed "meditation manuals" for pious Christians, which described Chris's suffery in details. The believers were supposed to rectreate His experience of dying, by contemplation, visualization, etc. Inculding the breath part, perhaps...
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