Controlling breath instead of observing

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
aloneseeker
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Controlling breath instead of observing

Post by aloneseeker »

When I try to be aware or observe the breath, I immediately start to control the flow, how can I avoid this?
SarathW
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Re: Controlling breath instead of observing

Post by SarathW »

In and out-breath are bodily fabrications hence you involuntarily control your breath.
So just watch that as a bodily fabrication.
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Pondera
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Re: Controlling breath instead of observing

Post by Pondera »

What part of the body do you observe when you do anapanasati?
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aloneseeker
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Re: Controlling breath instead of observing

Post by aloneseeker »

while watching the breath, I start controlling it, when its shallow it becomes deep and then I try to stop the breath to slow down its just haywire ...

I am focusing on the place where breath meets the internals of nostrils ... that sensation I am trying to focus on
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confusedlayman
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Re: Controlling breath instead of observing

Post by confusedlayman »

Same problem... this is why i cant enter jhana using breath meditation and i need help
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Controlling breath instead of observing

Post by Spiny Norman »

aloneseeker wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:10 am When I try to be aware or observe the breath, I immediately start to control the flow, how can I avoid this?
Something you could try is deliberately controlling the breath for a short period, then relaxing. Rather like you tense muscles prior to relaxing them.
Also paying attention to breathing sensations lower in the body might help to relax attention.
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Controlling breath instead of observing

Post by JamesTheGiant »

aloneseeker wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:47 am while watching the breath, I start controlling it, when its shallow it becomes deep and then I try to stop the breath to slow down its just haywire ...

I am focusing on the place where breath meets the internals of nostrils ... that sensation I am trying to focus on
Yes, this is a very common problem at the beginning. Just keep practising, keep experimenting with how to let go, how to watch instead of control, and you'll get it. Just breathe, might take a few weeks if you are meditating each day, but it's a stage almost everyone goes through at first. Persistence and patience are about 95% of meditation.
aloneseeker
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Re: Controlling breath instead of observing

Post by aloneseeker »

ok I think this makes sense "letting go of the need to control" is the skill I need to develop, I am controlling so many things entire day and want to know the outcomes, I will try repeating and practising letting go and just "watching" or "witnessing" the breath
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Controlling breath instead of observing

Post by Ceisiwr »

Just be in the moment. Allow the breath to calm your mind, which in turn calms the breath. "You" don't need to do anything.
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aloneseeker
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Re: Controlling breath instead of observing

Post by aloneseeker »

BTW instead of breath can I meditate on the point where the tip of the index finger meets the thumb when both the index and thumb are connected?
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Re: Controlling breath instead of observing

Post by pegembara »

Sometimes it helps to change your focus to body sensations for example the weight of your bottom on the cushion. Once you are more able to passively watch effortlessly then you can return your focus on the breath.

You are not doing but just watching. Start with things that you can't "do" like tactile sensations and not breathing.
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Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Controlling breath instead of observing

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

aloneseeker wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:10 am When I try to be aware or observe the breath, I immediately start to control the flow, how can I avoid this?
There are different views about this. Anapanasati sutta does not say you should not control the breath, just to know it.

According to mindfulness of breathing instructions by Thanissaro bhikkhu, you should control the breath while observing it.

According to him, the breath only proceeds automatically when you are not paying attention; as soon as you pay attention some control will be there. If you ignore this and try to 'not control breathing while paying attention to it' the control just becomes subconscious and still happens anyway. So you should consciously control it and make it comfortable and adjust it. Adjusting it also makes it easier to keep attention there.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Wri ... 210603.pdf
Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:
"The breath is one of the few processes in the body over which you can exert conscious control. An important part of breath meditation is learning how to make skillful use of this fact. You can learn which ways of breathing foster pleasant sensations in the body, and which ones foster unpleasant ones. You learn a sense of time and place: when and how to change the breath to make it more comfortable, and when to leave it alone. As you develop this knowledge, you can use it as an aid in developing skillful qualities of mind."

(p20)
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
aloneseeker
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Re: Controlling breath instead of observing

Post by aloneseeker »

exactly, I am confused too, on his youtube channel I have tried 3-4 guided meditation channels and he says to control the breath while I was reading Analayo Anapannasati it says know the breath
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Controlling breath instead of observing

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

aloneseeker wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:54 am exactly, I am confused too, on his youtube channel I have tried 3-4 guided meditation channels and he says to control the breath while I was reading Analayo Anapannasati it says know the breath
Knowing the breath does not mean you can't control it. Obviously to control it deliberately you have to know it.

The breath often starts being controlled subconsciously without knowing it, for example you may start breathing faster and shallower when anxious. So involuntary control happens a lot.

His view is also that you cannot attend to the breath without controlling it.

So there is no contradiction. You have to know the breath whether or not you deliberately try to work with it and adjust it.
For me the method of controlling the breathing makes more sense, since the breath is connected to mental states so if you can get good at adjusting the breath you can have more control of the emotions.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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mikenz66
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Re: Controlling breath instead of observing

Post by mikenz66 »

Here's a previous discussion.
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=22557

Ven Dhammanando has some useful comments about the ancient texts in this post:
Dhammanando wrote: Thu Dec 25, 2014 12:18 am
Yogicfire wrote:Thanks to Vince for posting this.. We were having a conversation on another site and I made the point that I had never heard of Buddhist teachers advising students to control their breath.
Among modern teachers control of breath was taught by Sunlun Sayadaw in Burma, by Nai Boonman in Thailand, and by Boonman's student Lance Cousins (and other Samatha Trust teachers) in England. It is of course a minority approach, but it's out there nonetheless.
Yogicfire wrote:I suspect that there has either been a mistranslation of the Pali verses or a differing view held by certain teachers/schools.
I think it's more likely the latter. The ancient Mahavihara Theravadin texts contain no explicit statement supporting either opinion, no matter how they're translated. The one text that does take sides is the Vimuttimagga, thought to be a composition of the Abhayagiri Vihara, wherein there is an explicit prescription for natural breathing.
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