When Jhāna isn't Jhāna

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Ceisiwr
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When Jhāna isn't Jhāna

Post by Ceisiwr »

According to the absorbed view of Jhāna when one is secluded from the senses one is also secluded from desire. There is then an indescribable rapture and bliss which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought on the meditation object. After exiting this ecstatic god-like bliss one does not lust after sense experiences again and so the fetter of kāmacchando is fully abandoned. My question for the non-absorbed Jhāna folks is, how is this not Right Samādhi?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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confusedlayman
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Re: When Jhāna isn't Jhāna

Post by confusedlayman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 5:11 am According to the absorbed view of Jhāna when one is secluded from the senses one is also secluded from desire. There is then an indescribable rapture and bliss which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought on the meditation object. After exiting this ecstatic god-like bliss one does not lust after sense experiences again and so the fetter of kāmacchando is fully abandoned. My question for the non-absorbed Jhāna folks is, how is this not Right Samādhi?
what if one thinks jhana is hard to get even though one attained it once in a while but sensual pleasure are easy to get and still enjoy sensual pleasure?

only wisdom can cut off lust and not just mere experience of jhana
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Ceisiwr
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Re: When Jhāna isn't Jhāna

Post by Ceisiwr »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:18 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 5:11 am According to the absorbed view of Jhāna when one is secluded from the senses one is also secluded from desire. There is then an indescribable rapture and bliss which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought on the meditation object. After exiting this ecstatic god-like bliss one does not lust after sense experiences again and so the fetter of kāmacchando is fully abandoned. My question for the non-absorbed Jhāna folks is, how is this not Right Samādhi?
what if one thinks jhana is hard to get even though one attained it once in a while but sensual pleasure are easy to get and still enjoy sensual pleasure?

only wisdom can cut off lust and not just mere experience of jhana
No. It is the experience of Jhāna which cuts off lust.

"Before my awakening—when I was still unawakened but intent on awakening—I too clearly saw with right wisdom that: ‘Sense objects give little gratification and much suffering and distress, and they are all the more full of drawbacks.’ But so long as I didn’t achieve the rapture and bliss that are apart from sense objects and unskillful qualities, or something even more peaceful than that, I didn’t announce that I would not return to sense objects. But when I did achieve that rapture and bliss, or something more peaceful than that, I announced that I would not return to sense objects."

- MN 14

“When serenity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Lust is abandoned.”

“When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Wisdom is developed. And when wisdom is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned."


AN 2.31
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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confusedlayman
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Re: When Jhāna isn't Jhāna

Post by confusedlayman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:25 am
confusedlayman wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:18 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 5:11 am According to the absorbed view of Jhāna when one is secluded from the senses one is also secluded from desire. There is then an indescribable rapture and bliss which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought on the meditation object. After exiting this ecstatic god-like bliss one does not lust after sense experiences again and so the fetter of kāmacchando is fully abandoned. My question for the non-absorbed Jhāna folks is, how is this not Right Samādhi?
what if one thinks jhana is hard to get even though one attained it once in a while but sensual pleasure are easy to get and still enjoy sensual pleasure?

only wisdom can cut off lust and not just mere experience of jhana
No. It is the experience of Jhāna which cuts off lust.

"Before my awakening—when I was still unawakened but intent on awakening—I too clearly saw with right wisdom that: ‘Sense objects give little gratification and much suffering and distress, and they are all the more full of drawbacks.’ But so long as I didn’t achieve the rapture and bliss that are apart from sense objects and unskillful qualities, or something even more peaceful than that, I didn’t announce that I would not return to sense objects. But when I did achieve that rapture and bliss, or something more peaceful than that, I announced that I would not return to sense objects."

- MN 14

“When serenity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Lust is abandoned.”

“When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Wisdom is developed. And when wisdom is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned."


AN 2.31
then why people who attained jhana after brahma rebirth again come to human realms and even to hell?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
BrokenBones
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Re: When Jhāna isn't Jhāna

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 5:11 am According to the absorbed view of Jhāna when one is secluded from the senses one is also secluded from desire. There is then an indescribable rapture and bliss which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought on the meditation object. After exiting this ecstatic god-like bliss one does not lust after sense experiences again and so the fetter of kāmacchando is fully abandoned. My question for the non-absorbed Jhāna folks is, how is this not Right Samādhi?
Are you saying that anyone who has experienced hard jhana will never experience lust again?
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Re: When Jhāna isn't Jhāna

Post by un8- »

I don't believe there is a "meditation object" like a kasina or whatever. The meditation object is the mind, thoughts in particular.

Being absorbed in something doesn't remove an obsession (fetter), it's simply a temporary distraction that consumes one's attention.

You could say people become "absorbed" when they watch TV, they lose track of time and their attention is 100% focused on the meditation object that is the TV, but when that experience is over their mind returns to how it was.

The same goes for mundane jhana, after the experience, the mind returns back to its fettered/obsessed/hindered default mode, so "absorption" didn't solve anything, it only provided a temporary distraction.

However if your meditation object is the mind itself, and you're constantly aware of obsessive thoughts, then you will attain Supermundane jhana which is the result of having no unwholesome qualities, rather than the result of glueing your attention really hard to something. Supermundane Jhana leads to understanding and one becomes sensitive to obsessive thoughts so this must result in permanent fetter/obsession destruction as one sees unwholesome obsessive thoughts as painful, like touching a fire.

So to summarize, the mechanism that destroys the fetters isn't absorption (directing all your senses into one thing), it's understanding and perception change, i.e. disliking obsessive unwholesome thoughts because you now see it as stressful/painful.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Re: When Jhāna isn't Jhāna

Post by Tennok »

=BrokenBones post_id=651375 time=1635059796 user_id=15222
Are you saying that anyone who has experienced hard jhana will never experience lust again?

I don't know what Ceisiwr thinks about that, but I do know official Theravada stand point. Buddha used this temporary suspension of fetters, to experience further insights. Jhana was like a grindstone, to sharpen his panna. And later he becoame Arahant, indeed free from lust.

But according to M. Elliade, in early Buddhism there were those, who believed that transforming Samadhi experience alone is enough, to be liberated. In sutta they are called "those who touch the deathless element by the body". And those folks competed with the insight oriented folks, who believed in knowleddge and thinking - and possibly, were unable to experience deep jhanas. Like Ananda. There are suttas which directly adress this issue, and demand compromise and "mutual respect" from bikhus with different strategies and skills on the Path. Like Cunda sutta:
Thus, friends, you should train yourselves: 'Being Dhamma-devotee monks, we will speak in praise of jhana monks.' That's how you should train yourselves. Why is that? Because these are amazing people, hard to find in the world, i.e., those who dwell touching the deathless element with the body.[2]

"And thus, friends, you should train yourselves: 'Being jhana monks, we will speak in praise of Dhamma-devotee monks.' That's how you should train yourselves. Why is that? Because these are amazing people, hard to find in the world, i.e., those who penetrate with discernment statements of deep meaning."
ttps://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an0 ... .than.html

For me, this sutta suggests, that one can reach liberation by jhana practice alone. Or just by insight. I mean, touching the deathless element means touching the Nibbana, right?

It also offers a strong argument against "jhana light" belief, that jhanas were trivialy easy, natural thing, accesible to everyone. Becouse it seems, there were many devoted monks, who didnt use them, as a tool, for some reason. Or just couldn't use them. And they neglected jhana from the very beginning. And vice versa, there were monks, who didn't care much about insight and suttas, happy with their jhanas.
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Re: When Jhāna isn't Jhāna

Post by BrokenBones »

Tennok wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:19 am
=BrokenBones post_id=651375 time=1635059796 user_id=15222
Are you saying that anyone who has experienced hard jhana will never experience lust again?
...

It also offers a strong argument against "jhana light" belief, that jhanas were trivialy easy, natural thing, accesible to everyone. Becouse it seems, there were many devoted monks, who didnt use them, as a tool, for some reason. Or just couldn't use them. And they neglected jhana from the very beginning. And vice versa, there were monks, who didn't care much about insight and suttas, happy with their jhanas.
The Dhamma is not trivially easy but it is open to everyone. Sutta jhanas are as a result of a thorough development of the 8NP, they are subtle and not to be obtained by force of concentration.

The development of sutta jhana is a subtle affair that is by no means easy for people who like to use willpower and sheer grit & determination to succeed.

Letting go or 'abandoning' is very hard for people who like to 'attain'... it's why sutta jhanas are easy and at the same time extremely difficult.
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Re: When Jhāna isn't Jhāna

Post by Tennok »

BrokenBones wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:01 am Letting go or 'abandoning' is very hard for people who like to 'attain'... it's why sutta jhanas are easy and at the same time extremely difficult.
Thing is, that the "hard jhanas" , are practiced, or cultivated, by abbandoning and letting go, too. That's a main theme of A. Brahm method, for example. No forceful concentration. So the difference is not really there.

Actually, forceful concentration implays craving. It's an obstacle, same like any desire of attainment.
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Re: When Jhāna isn't Jhāna

Post by BrokenBones »

Tennok wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:50 am
BrokenBones wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:01 am Letting go or 'abandoning' is very hard for people who like to 'attain'... it's why sutta jhanas are easy and at the same time extremely difficult.
Thing is, that the "hard jhanas" , are practiced, or cultivated, by abbandoning and letting go, too. That's a main theme of A. Brahm method, for example. No forceful concentration. So the difference is not really there.

Actually, forceful concentration implays craving. It's an obstacle, same like any desire of attainment.
Talk is cheap... there's not much letting go if you're focusing like mad... more like fixating on the Great Brahma and sinking into it.

And yes, strong concentration does entail craving.
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Re: When Jhāna isn't Jhāna

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 5:11 am According to the absorbed view of Jhāna when one is secluded
it is quite secluded. I would expect from you lot less sloppiness.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 5:11 am There is then an indescribable rapture and bliss which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought on the meditation object.
really, is pitisukha accompanied by vitakkavicara?
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Re: When Jhāna isn't Jhāna

Post by nirodh27 »

According to the absorbed view of Jhāna when one is secluded from the senses one is also secluded from desire. There is then an indescribable rapture and bliss which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought on the meditation object. After exiting this ecstatic god-like bliss one does not lust after sense experiences again and so the fetter of kāmacchando is fully abandoned. My question for the non-absorbed Jhāna folks is, how is this not Right Samādhi?
Hi Ceiswir,

I would say "thanks for asking". if you look purely at your description, the wisdom is not there, it seems an automated process. Ecstatic god-like bliss > lust ended. It sounds like a miracle.
After exiting this ecstatic god-like bliss one does not lust after sense experiences again and so the fetter of kāmacchando is fully abandoned
For some time, yes. But then if you engage again in sensuality, as in MA82 that I report here and his Nikaya parallel that I can't find, you will go back to the usual. It is the Buddha that in MN14 said that he would have never go back to sensuality, but only because he was determined to get Nibbana or to die trying and he foresaw the ending of the path ("this is the path of awakening!"). There's the possibility to return to sensuality for those who have reached even fourth Jhana, not to speak of the first. Since this is reported in the canon, the argument that Jhana destroy the fetter of kamacchando by godlike pleasure is not correct:
Again, venerable friends, there may be a person who attains the first absorption (same also for second,third,fourth). Having attained the first absorption, he remains satisfied with that and does not strive further, wishing to attain what has not yet been attained, to gain what has not been gained, to realize what has not been realized. At a later time he associates much with laypeople, makes fun, is conceited, and engages in various kinds of boisterous talk. As he associates much with laypeople, makes fun, is conceited, and engages in various kinds of boisterous talk, desire arises in his mind. Desire having arisen in his mind, the body and the mind become passionate. The body and the mind being passionate, he abandons the moral precepts and stops [practicing] the path. Venerable friends, it is just like when there is a great rain and the village pond becomes full of water. Earlier one could see [in that pond] sand, stones, vegetation, beetles, fish, turtles, toads, and all kinds of water-dwelling creatures, as they went back and forth, moved about or remained still. Afterwards, when [the pond] is full of water, one can no longer see them. Venerable friends, if someone were to say, “In this village pond one will never again see sand, stones, vegetation, beetles, fish, turtles, toads, and all kinds of water-dwelling creatures as they go back and forth, move about, or remain still,” would that be correctly spoken?

They replied:

No. Why is that? Elephants might drink from the pond; horses, camels, cows, donkeys, pigs, deer, or water buffalo might drink water from it.
People might take water from it for their use, the wind might blow on it and the sun might dry it up. Even if one did not previously see [in that
pond] sand, stones, vegetation, beetles, fish, turtles, toads, and all kinds of water-dwelling creatures, as they went back and forth, moved about
or remained still, later, when the water has become diminished, one sees them again, just as before.
In your view, the record of MA82 would be impossible. So Jhana is a battery that needs to get constantly replenished, it is not a thing that you get and that's it, you're done. In this simile, no matter how strong your pleasure is, it will diminish and you are dependant of that food. This is true for both jhanas, but with a caveat.

How a monk can work for never going back? Seclusion from the village is the first thing, but the second thing is having done the pre-jhanic work and first-jhanic work of seeing the drawbacks and cultivating wholesome like fewerness of wishes, nonaversion... (which is the framework of MN14 also, they have both understood the drawbacks, but only the Buddha linked seeing the drawbacks to pleasure, a pure work of genius).

The caveat is evident: the absorption-jhana pond is way more in danger, especially for a lay person, than the "wisdom-jhana" pond. In fact, the work on concentration doesn't incline you towards renunciation and dispassion since it is a concentration technique in which you spend you time in a single job: concentrating on an object and have the right conditions to do that. The wisdom-jhana instead is all about seeing the drawbacks of sensual pleasures and cultivating wholesome thoughts and intentions. With absorption jhana you are dependant from the godlike pleasure and you simply prefer the superior pleasure without wisdom, in the wisdom-jhana you are doing a work of linking renunciation,nonaversion and reflection about sensuality to the pleasure that doing exactly that brings.

The first absorption Jhana will need constant maintenance and requires also more difficult conditions to have since when you engage in laylife you will do the contrary work since you need to use your senses again, while the wisdom-jhana is more receptive since you don't work to shut down senses, but you work to undestand and to remove value from sensual pleasures, to renounce the allures by engaging them with Sati (the Dhamma). This method can actually be used also in laylife and in real-life occasions in which senses have to be active. And after all, if the Buddha would have wanted you to shut down the senses, it would have given you instructions to do that, instead of talking about drawbacks, wholosome thoughts and intentions, ecc in MN19.

Remember that in MA102/MN19 it is said:
Monks, in accordance with what one intends, in accordance with what one thinks, the mind takes delight in that. If a monk often thinks thoughts without sensual desire and abandons thoughts of sensual desire, then because of often thinking thoughts without sensual desire his mind takes delight in them.
Wisdom-Jhana puts wisdom and wisdom on the shoulder of the meditator and every wisdom you put on your shoulder strenghten your happiness. One factor strenghten the other and vice-versa. Brilliant! And of course, since there's no shutdown, in many moments of your day you will have fingersnaps or minutes of jhanic pleasure, a possibility supported by the canon, since a thought of renunciation or non-aversion is a jhanic moment and if you have strenghtened the u-turn enough, it brings pleasure and makes your life a bliss.

So the Buddha wisely links the pleasure with renunciation and non-aversion (a thing that doesn't happen in deep absorption), making renunciation and thoughts of nekkhamma the basis for the first Jhana before going into the second that has to be done only when the first is perfected, when the mind simply thinks in every occasion renunciation thoughts just like the worldy mind thinks in every occasion thoughts about sensuality. Then you can rest even more and pacify your intentions to the point that all is asukha-adukkha. This u-turn can be done indipendently of skill and requires very little intelligence (it can even be done by sheer faith), while the absorption Jhanas are work for gifted people that have the ability of strong concentration.

You learn first jhana by learning to take delight in seclusion, renunciation, non-aversion, non-cruelty. This avoids that the meditator to simply learn to take delight in a strong concentration on an object which is an inferior route even if the pure pleasure could be greater. Remember that we want the fastest possible way to end Dukkha. If you take delight in concentration on an object, you avoid to delight in thoughts of renunciation. You can't delight in both and there's the risk to prefer the concentration to the renunciation and so the mind will incline only to one of them sooner or later. If you experience a godlike ecstasy like the one of absorption, you will be less inclined to develop thoughts of renunciation because you will be satisfied as long as you have time and conditions for that kind of Jhana which is why many famous monks says that absorption jhanas are dangerous. The mind takes delight in accordance of one intends, and one intends in accordance to pleasure and where he finds the most of it.

So that kind of Jhana doesn't incline you towards dispassion very well because it misses the Buddha's intent to link the Jhana with the analysis of your thoughts by making that analysis the entrance point of the bliss and peace that is dependent from them. It is not bad, it has a goal, but you have also to fear it and ask yourself if it a worthy one (especially since the automatic removal of kammachanda is not there, you will always be at risk if you lose the conditions that are very demanding for deep absorption).

The Buddha prescribed another method in MN19-20/MA101-102, one that gets you to deal directly with analysis of the drawbacks of sensual pleasures and lust so to abandon them with an actual encounter with them and to strenghten your renunciation by learning from them. It is also formative, since you first do the work and then you rest. With absorption Jhana you do a work for rest, you rest, and then you do the work. Since you are satisfied and without almost any Dukkha, you will probably risk not do the work, but just enjoy the afterglow and crave for more concentration, which is what I did in my first retreats with absorption. Jhana-wisdom is more calm, life-changing, it makes no discounts (because you can't lie to yourself, you love renunciation or not) no ecstasy, but very calm even in turmoil which is a kind of pleasure that is beautiful to savor and learn to appreciate by continuosly noting it when it happens, the second Satipatthana I think (worldy vs niramisa).
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Re: When Jhāna isn't Jhāna

Post by arkaprava »

Very well written. :goodpost:
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Re: When Jhāna isn't Jhāna

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 5:11 am According to the absorbed view of Jhāna when one is secluded from the senses one is also secluded from desire. There is then an indescribable rapture and bliss which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought on the meditation object. After exiting this ecstatic god-like bliss one does not lust after sense experiences again and so the fetter of kāmacchando is fully abandoned. My question for the non-absorbed Jhāna folks is, how is this not Right Samādhi?
Absorbed or not, the purpose of samadhi is to recognize the three marks and develop disenchantment - not experience a god like bliss that one becomes addicted to. The nature of the bliss is “release” - not ecstasy.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: When Jhāna isn't Jhāna

Post by BrokenBones »

Nirodh27... very thoughtful post 👍
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