If you practice jhāna correctly according to the suttas, the force is always with you and it grows exponentially.

[auto]

Or like a feeling of a force trying to push through your crown chakra.
Or like getting an erection during avitakka avicara jhana sitting meditation with no perception of lust.
Or the force of your jhana pushing out a giant ear wax popping out of your ear.

those kind of things there you put without context. For example when penis is erect that is red alert, the force is about to go out and also can be gathered back. Even when there is no lust, it is written so in a book.

[waryoffolly]

It may be, at first, until you have better states.
The point is, the force, pressure, sensations experienced in the four jhanas are just as tangible and concrete as the jacuzzi jets forcing water to create sensations on your body.
It's not always going to feel like a jacuzzi, or a spring lake, but the point I'm trying to get across is whatever jhana you're in, you can always feel tangible, physically sensed force.
If you have real passaddhi, you'll feel force somewhere or everywhere in the body when you develop the sensitivity.
Passaddhi and force is instant on, once you've practiced it enough. Of course most people aren't going to get their highest quality of jhana instantly, but once you recognize and learn to tangibly feel jhanic force, you can get on the jhanic force train instantly and deepen it, and it is not limited by posture, only by tension. So of course lying down has the least tension, followed by sitting, standing, walking.

A strong second jhana feels much better than a jacuzzi, it literally feels like a full body orgasm that can last for hours.
But that's dependent on the health condition of the body, not everyone is going to experience it that way.

But everyone who does jhana correctly will feel tangible forces at work, that you can feel and sense with the physical body, and that can be practiced and developed in all 4 postures.

Just some casual thoughts:
I agree that there is bodily sukha in jhana, but I wouldn’t describe it (based on my reading of the suttas) in terms of “physical force” more like ease and lightness born of tranquility-ie pleasure born of the calming of physical activities. Less jacuzzi, more tranquil still lake. The standard sequence leading to jhana has sukha (which you and I believe to be bodily) coming after passaddhi and as a result of it. Even piti I don’t think is as “ecstatic” as we often hear it described. Piti in the standard sequence leads to passaddhi of the mind and body-i.e. it should be joyful, but simultaneously peace inducing. So I’d say it’s more of a “spiritual uplift” which calms and energizes simultaneously than a powerfully intense force.

I’m not saying you’re personally doing this-but when I read your descriptions of jhana sometimes it sounds like there’s an overemphasis on the amount or intensity of pleasure, especially physical pleasure-but IMO the emphasis should be on the wholesome qualities of the mind in each jhana. So emphasizing freedom from sense desires and hindrances for first, freedom from vittaka/vicara for second etc. The joy, and tranquility are (initially) results of this freedom, and come naturally on their own once the mind is free and this freedom is recognized. (Later on full immersion ,as shown in the jhana similes, in the wholesome experience of joy reinforces and deepens one freedom and seclusion.)

[auto]

From another thread you equate passadhi with the force.

Only if they've done a fair amount of jhana battery draining activity, like thinking about Dhamma too much, giving Dhamma talk, doing physical labor, will they be able to get to taste sukha

these two quotes. The above what you talking is same as coming home from work for a week long vacation then there is enthusiasm to do things like food, clean room, visit friends etc, but it dies down eventually. It is unskillful.

someone whose baseline is 4th jhana, with their battery full, while doing jhana (in any posture) is not going to get the physical pleasure of sukha of second jhana (intense hydraulic force) or 3rd jhana's smooth sukha.

second quote is when the bs energy have dissolved and the hangover starts. I guess its when the hirī(shame) comes in.
this third quote could hint that person has no shame, what would make one resolve to not do it all over again.

It's just like eating. If you're hungry and your body needs nutrients, you'll get sukha in the form of brain pleasure chemicals to encourage you to eat more.

Without giving explanation, it is bs energy. Correct is when start with blank mind and then get the energy.

[auto]

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... ectly.html

I think you avoid the difficulty what comes from prolonged practice which is essentially about doing nothing useful.

Those who practice the authentic sutta jhana whole heartedly, along with satipatthana applied all day every day, in every moment every posture, their jhana battery is constantly getting charged, and the force grows exponentially. Jhana for them works just as well in a silent retreat intensive environment as normal day to day life, because they're working on that skill all the time.

So do you, never getting pass the point where you could focus on difficult mental factor and see it coming into fruition.

They never learned to relax consciously, they only learn to subconciously relax, with most of their attention focused on forcefully ignoring the body and even skillful thoughts.

I suspect you are doing the relaxation as people do on a sofa or something, relying on the softness or whatever makes you feel relaxed. I hope you bring arguments what counter my accusations of you doing things in a bs way.

Using the wrong kind of force that leads to mental and physical tension (and eventually poor mental health), which is why most meditators who try that system fail.

[auto]

If you have real passaddhi, you'll feel force somewhere or everywhere in the body when you develop the sensitivity.
Passaddhi and force is instant on,

You can have force instantly on. What do you do then. Does that force have a role, can you concentrate on it and then does it let you do something in a body resulting in some other thing?
You mention it being tangible, is it mental tangible or do you feel it with a body that something vibrates or the smoothness or goo-ness(whatever you describe it with)?

[Cause_and_Effect]

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... ectly.html

I'm not dismissing this and your take is interesting.
Some of it sounds more akin to kriyas of Kundalini yoga though.
There is some overlap I believe but it's more about the direction you take the practice.

[frank k]

if you read the articles on Jhāna Passaddhi Baselines
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... jhana.html

and how I define jhana constipation
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/ ... index.html

that should make more clear what I mean by 'the force', and its direct relationship with passaddhi, and the difference between sa-misa and nira-misa piti & sukha.

There isn't a separate set of pleasure brain chemicals for niramisa and samisa piti and sukha. So you shouldn't assume when I say doing an activity to product sukha and trigger pleasure brain chemicals has to be an sa-misa piti sukha and akusala activity.

Thanks for bringing up some of the concerns you raise, I'll revise my articles to make some of it more clear.
But some of the issues you raise are simply because you start off from a position of disrespect and assuming things and misinterpreting what I say instead of asking for clarification.
If you instead take into consideration that I've had decades of meditation experience and might know what I'm talking about, you're much more likely to get a response.

From another thread you equate passadhi with the force.

Only if they've done a fair amount of jhana battery draining activity, like thinking about Dhamma too much, giving Dhamma talk, doing physical labor, will they be able to get to taste sukha

these two quotes. The above what you talking is same as coming home from work for a week long vacation then there is enthusiasm to do things like food, clean room, visit friends etc, but it dies down eventually. It is unskillful.

someone whose baseline is 4th jhana, with their battery full, while doing jhana (in any posture) is not going to get the physical pleasure of sukha of second jhana (intense hydraulic force) or 3rd jhana's smooth sukha.

second quote is when the bs energy have dissolved and the hangover starts. I guess its when the hirī(shame) comes in.
this third quote could hint that person has no shame, what would make one resolve to not do it all over again.

It's just like eating. If you're hungry and your body needs nutrients, you'll get sukha in the form of brain pleasure chemicals to encourage you to eat more.

Without giving explanation, it is bs energy. Correct is when start with blank mind and then get the energy.

[auto]

But some of the issues you raise are simply because you start off from a position of disrespect and assuming things and misinterpreting what I say instead of asking for clarification.
If you instead take into consideration that I've had decades of meditation experience and might know what I'm talking about, you're much more likely to get a response.

Starting off as a point of disrespect or just an unbiased anonymous poster opinion?

Decades of meditation doesn't show anything. You either have regular happenings, which you managed to tell one, in the falling feeling thread. Or not. In my opinion you are stuck.
For example you get one experience then you should have also acquired knowledge, which when applied surmounts previous way or method. Not in specific order, this would coincidence with the smoothing descriptions you gave. There energy disappears and mind is especially clear and one for sure mistakes it with that is it, it is the end, there is no trace of crap in mind. This state is when sense go off so to speak for a moment while still retaining awareness, but that is not what vipassana-jhana only groups will tell you, they will tell that there everything goes off that there won't be any knowledge of it.
And that the afterglow of that fruition may last days. Now here is another difference, actually it is the mind what will come muddled again over time. Also this conundrum has a knowledge too how it make it muddled faster so that you could use mind to initiate process. So now you coming to say that you can mediate instantly, it is different state again, i think you talk about coming aware and make sense of the difference between unaware and aware state of which there also arise pleasant feeling, which you claim can last hours so i presume it is this what you talk(to say i wonder if you notice it as a substance like energy on its own?).. So i have had qualms with others(other meditation groups) too with the claims they make and if to question it can come off as disrespectful.

[frank k]

You jump to way too many conclusions and make wrong assumptions about what I've written, and taken some things out of context. This is probably why you have problems in other forums you mentioned.
I tend to stay on topic, stick to the OP thread, only mentioning relevant meditation experience that's relevant to the OP.
I think the main problem between us, is you seem to assume everyone has a working knowledge of Abhidhamma, and that Abhidhamma and suttas don't contradict at all.
My positions tend to be the opposite, that when it comes to 'jhana', LBT late Theravada Abhidhamma seriously contradicts the suttas.

But some of the issues you raise are simply because you start off from a position of disrespect and assuming things and misinterpreting what I say instead of asking for clarification.
If you instead take into consideration that I've had decades of meditation experience and might know what I'm talking about, you're much more likely to get a response.

Starting off as a point of disrespect or just an unbiased anonymous poster opinion?

Decades of meditation doesn't show anything. You either have regular happenings, which you managed to tell one, in the falling feeling thread. Or not. In my opinion you are stuck.
For example you get one experience then you should have also acquired knowledge, which when applied surmounts previous way or method. Not in specific order, this would coincidence with the smoothing descriptions you gave. There energy disappears and mind is especially clear and one for sure mistakes it with that is it, it is the end, there is no trace of crap in mind. This state is when sense go off so to speak for a moment while still retaining awareness, but that is not what vipassana-jhana only groups will tell you, they will tell that there everything goes off that there won't be any knowledge of it.
And that the afterglow of that fruition may last days. Now here is another difference, actually it is the mind what will come muddled again over time. Also this conundrum has a knowledge too how it make it muddled faster so that you could use mind to initiate process. So now you coming to say that you can mediate instantly, it is different state again, i think you talk about coming aware and make sense of the difference between unaware and aware state of which there also arise pleasant feeling, which you claim can last hours so i presume it is this what you talk(to say i wonder if you notice it as a substance like energy on its own?).. So i have had qualms with others(other meditation groups) too with the claims they make and if to question it can come off as disrespectful.

[bodom]

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[auto]

You jump to way too many conclusions and make wrong assumptions about what I've written, and taken some things out of context. This is probably why you have problems in other forums you mentioned.

i hope you are not circulating energy. Like the people doing qi gong or doing Yoga as doing yoga postures, or breathing meditators doing different breathing styles, thinking it is the high end.
I wanted to tell about there is 'things done by the mind' and then those things done by using the mind. But these two aspects are not realized by doing aforementioned ways.
You can do qi-gong on the beach, but in respect to mind it only takes the nimitta in general via association or habit or some other similar reason and that nimitta, if it suits for progress, arises into the mind at the time when senses are restrained in certain aspects and then it allows to use the mind and solve the issue(which itself is due restraint). But if you don't restrain certain aspects, poor discipline what isn't strict or punctuate, then no nimitta arrive.
If not like the word nimitta, then use taste, it is the same thing like thinking about wet newspapers and you can smell it. But different object, different nimitta and what its good for and also how difficult it is to get arise and how long it takes to practice and how solitude and what position, see eventually will qi gong or whatever claims made make sense, but if it doesn't make sense it also don't work.