If you practice jhāna correctly according to the suttas, the force is always with you and it grows exponentially.

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
auto
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Re: If you practice jhāna correctly according to the suttas, the force is always with you and it grows exponentially.

Post by auto »

poor and wrong things you type. You even don't know what celibacy is. You type exactly the poop what i argue against and i have gotten banned from two forums already because of it. I see you use some alchemy terms, that's just adds to the cringiness.
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Re: If you practice jhāna correctly according to the suttas, the force is always with you and it grows exponentially.

Post by Sam Vara »

Moderator note: please could members refrain from generalised negativity. Constructive criticism of specifics would be better, no?
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Re: If you practice jhāna correctly according to the suttas, the force is always with you and it grows exponentially.

Post by auto »

Sam Vara wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:48 pm Moderator note: please could members refrain from generalised negativity. Constructive criticism of specifics would be better, no?
The force what he talks about is the crap from doing mundane activities, when calm in the room, which he calls 2nd jhāna. Force come with a pair, one of them is black and other is crap. Black is background and is solid and not discernible nor touchable with the mind. The crap follows where the focus is, and if to focus on the background not the details of what is seen, background will eventually crack open by crap.

The vibrates or tingles in spine also pleasurable feelings etc when calming down are that same crap vibrating in sensual center in lower belly. It gets there when all the reoccurring mental concomitants are gone through, it will become one with the breath and is then lead to the sensual center. This is the point where it should stay in not let out, but led upwards after reentering the sensual center and a noob person yet can't discern if and when it has risen, it arises into brain, so that when you look out of the eyes there is a room by then, then there is small light happen and feeling that something passed on, whereas when it first happens can be a big event. Vibrating, tingles denote exactly that, that it is ready for arising.
And most likely it won't arise but goes out of the sexual organ before it can arise upward because not enough things can't be done mentally yet but need to be seen as real in the world and gone through this way.
There will be another stage, these stages are seemingly same but they build up on each other and are more colossal than previous. Also the practice methods vary what are done in different stages and new things discovered. Things what takes at first months to go through can be done within the day.. the stage where the vapor comes out occurs more often, vapor really is body awareness it reveals cavities and makes things possible to use for faster progress and outward manifestations expire, diseases can't progress to second stages etc.

Its a big topic of things, op's still playing with dolls so to speak. I'm sure big guns will look what i type same way.
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Re: If you practice jhāna correctly according to the suttas, the force is always with you and it grows exponentially.

Post by mikenz66 »

Jacuzzi Jhana certainly sounds enticing...
frank k wrote:Second jhana, like the simile says in AN 5.28, feels like you're sitting in a lake on springs, and you can feel a strong force of current from the jets shooting up from the spring that feeds the lake.
Or a 21st century analagy, like you're sitting in a jacuzzi hot tub and the jets of water are shooting up your tailbone and spine with tangible force you can physically feel.
Second jhana feels hydraulic like this, it's a simile but it literally feels just like that, those exact physical sensations.
You get the pleasure chemicals, euphoria, that you do from the same brain chemicals you get from eating food when you're starving, or the orgasmic pleasure from sex.
That's why meditators compare jhana to sex. It feels like that because the same brain chemicals are in play. The difference is with sex, the euphoria is localized to a few parts of the body, and vital precious energy (which is required to make healthy living babies) is leaving your system permanently.
In contrast, with jhana, it's full body pervasion of orgasmic physical sensation and the precious internal energy is retained.
The force is driving the current of orgasmic pleasure through every cell in your body in those interconnected loops of energy channels, and it can last for hours.
The Sutta sounds rather tame in comparison...
(2) “Again, with the subsiding of thought and examination, a bhikkhu enters and dwells in the second jhāna, which has internal placidity and unification of mind and consists of rapture and pleasure born of concentration, without thought and examination. He makes the rapture and happiness born of concentration drench, steep, fill, and pervade this body, so that there is no part of his whole body that is not pervaded by the rapture and happiness born of concentration. Just as there might be a lake whose waters welled up from below with no inflow from east, west, north, or south, and the lake would not be replenished from time to time by showers of rain, then the cool fount of water welling up in the lake would make the cool water drench, steep, fill, and pervade the lake, so that there would be no part of the whole lake that is not pervaded by cool water; so too, the bhikkhu makes the rapture and happiness born of concentration drench, steep, fill, and pervade this body, so that there is no part of his whole body that is not pervaded by the rapture and happiness born of concentration. This is the second development of noble five-factored right concentration.
https://suttacentral.net/an5.28/en/bodhi
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Re: If you practice jhāna correctly according to the suttas, the force is always with you and it grows exponentially.

Post by Sam Vara »

mikenz66 wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:44 pm Jacuzzi Jhana certainly sounds enticing...

The Sutta sounds rather tame in comparison...
:jumping: The Buddha seems to incline towards taming, though...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wood.html
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Re: If you practice jhāna correctly according to the suttas, the force is always with you and it grows exponentially.

Post by nirodh27 »

mikenz66 wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:44 pm The Sutta sounds rather tame in comparison...
(2) “Again, with the subsiding of thought and examination, a bhikkhu enters and dwells in the second jhāna, which has internal placidity and unification of mind and consists of rapture and pleasure born of concentration, without thought and examination. He makes the rapture and happiness born of concentration drench, steep, fill, and pervade this body, so that there is no part of his whole body that is not pervaded by the rapture and happiness born of concentration. Just as there might be a lake whose waters welled up from below with no inflow from east, west, north, or south, and the lake would not be replenished from time to time by showers of rain, then the cool fount of water welling up in the lake would make the cool water drench, steep, fill, and pervade the lake, so that there would be no part of the whole lake that is not pervaded by cool water; so too, the bhikkhu makes the rapture and happiness born of concentration drench, steep, fill, and pervade this body, so that there is no part of his whole body that is not pervaded by the rapture and happiness born of concentration. This is the second development of noble five-factored right concentration.
https://suttacentral.net/an5.28/en/bodhi
:goodpost: by reading this, I get a sense of calmness and lucidity, it doesn't seem an orgasmic explosion at all. I think in MA the second jhana simile is a lotus in a pond, but I have to verify.
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Re: If you practice jhāna correctly according to the suttas, the force is always with you and it grows exponentially.

Post by frank k »

mikenz66 wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:44 pm Jacuzzi Jhana certainly sounds enticing...
...
It may be, at first, until you have better states.
The point is, the force, pressure, sensations experienced in the four jhanas are just as tangible and concrete as the jacuzzi jets forcing water to create sensations on your body.
It's not always going to feel like a jacuzzi, or a spring lake, but the point I'm trying to get across is whatever jhana you're in, you can always feel tangible, physically sensed force.
If you have real passaddhi, you'll feel force somewhere or everywhere in the body when you develop the sensitivity.
Passaddhi and force is instant on, once you've practiced it enough. Of course most people aren't going to get their highest quality of jhana instantly, but once you recognize and learn to tangibly feel jhanic force, you can get on the jhanic force train instantly and deepen it, and it is not limited by posture, only by tension. So of course lying down has the least tension, followed by sitting, standing, walking.

A strong second jhana feels much better than a jacuzzi, it literally feels like a full body orgasm that can last for hours.
But that's dependent on the health condition of the body, not everyone is going to experience it that way.

But everyone who does jhana correctly will feel tangible forces at work, that you can feel and sense with the physical body, and that can be practiced and developed in all 4 postures.
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Re: If you practice jhāna correctly according to the suttas, the force is always with you and it grows exponentially.

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

frank k wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:04 pm
A strong second jhana feels much better than a jacuzzi, it literally feels like a full body orgasm that can last for hours.
But is that an ideal way to experience meditation? Wouldn't one be tired of it? Or cannot be mindful due to too much joy? Does one has to abandon all guilt too to allow joy to keep on increasing? I assume the exponentially means the joy and happiness which increases. Also, what do you think calming the mental formations mean in the mindfulness of breathing? How to apply it? Sorry, limited internet, cannot go to your blog.
Last edited by DiamondNgXZ on Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: If you practice jhāna correctly according to the suttas, the force is always with you and it grows exponentially.

Post by frank k »

Is English your native language? You seem to assume you understand what I'm saying, and that other people will understand what you're saying.
I often don't respond to your messages because I have no idea what you're saying in part or in total. For example:
Force come with a pair, one of them is black and other is crap. Black is background and is solid and not discernible nor touchable with the mind. The crap follows where the focus is, and if to focus on the background not the details of what is seen, background will eventually crack open by crap.
I'm happy to consider any constructive criticism, but I have to be able to understand you first.

auto wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:16 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:48 pm Moderator note: please could members refrain from generalised negativity. Constructive criticism of specifics would be better, no?
The force what he talks about is the crap from doing mundane activities, when calm in the room, which he calls 2nd jhāna. Force come with a pair, one of them is black and other is crap. Black is background and is solid and not discernible nor touchable with the mind. The crap follows where the focus is, and if to focus on the background not the details of what is seen, background will eventually crack open by crap.

The vibrates or tingles in spine also pleasurable feelings etc when calming down are that same crap vibrating in sensual center in lower belly. It gets there when all the reoccurring mental concomitants are gone through, it will become one with the breath and is then lead to the sensual center. This is the point where it should stay in not let out, but led upwards after reentering the sensual center and a noob person yet can't discern if and when it has risen, it arises into brain, so that when you look out of the eyes there is a room by then, then there is small light happen and feeling that something passed on, whereas when it first happens can be a big event. Vibrating, tingles denote exactly that, that it is ready for arising.
And most likely it won't arise but goes out of the sexual organ before it can arise upward because not enough things can't be done mentally yet but need to be seen as real in the world and gone through this way.
There will be another stage, these stages are seemingly same but they build up on each other and are more colossal than previous. Also the practice methods vary what are done in different stages and new things discovered. Things what takes at first months to go through can be done within the day.. the stage where the vapor comes out occurs more often, vapor really is body awareness it reveals cavities and makes things possible to use for faster progress and outward manifestations expire, diseases can't progress to second stages etc.

Its a big topic of things, op's still playing with dolls so to speak. I'm sure big guns will look what i type same way.
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www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
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Re: If you practice jhāna correctly according to the suttas, the force is always with you and it grows exponentially.

Post by frank k »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:12 pm
frank k wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:04 pm
A strong second jhana feels much better than a jacuzzi, it literally feels like a full body orgasm that can last for hours.
But is that an ideal way to experience meditation? Wouldn't one be tired of it? Or cannot be mindful due to too much joy? Does one has to abandon all guilt too to allow joy to keep on increasing? I assume the exponentially means the joy and happiness which increases. Also, what do you think calming the mental formations mean in the mindfulness of breathing? How to apply it? Sorry, limited internet, cannot go to your blog.
I don't think people are really catching the main point, which is, the strength of the jhana symptoms for everyone is going to vary, it MAY be as strong as an orgasm, or MAY be extremely mild if their health is excellent and their energy channels open and in great condition. But the one reliable marker for 4 jhanas is passadhi samobojjhanga, when done correctly, one will feel tangible forces in the physical body instantly. If the force is strong enough to drive a current (of heat, electricity, gooey magnetic energy) that permeates the entire body, and it feels mentally and physically pleasurable, it's most likely somewhere on the spectrum of the first 3 jhanas.

I'm just talking about tangible jhanic force on this thread, not the other aspects of meditation you question.
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Re: If you practice jhāna correctly according to the suttas, the force is always with you and it grows exponentially.

Post by auto »

frank k wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:12 pm I'm happy to consider any constructive criticism, but I have to be able to understand you first.
Ok, first thing, have you noticed that the eyes are different, that they are not the same. Some people have it more pronounced and call it a lazy eye what seem to be dormant. Other words do you accept there is difference?
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Re: If you practice jhāna correctly according to the suttas, the force is always with you and it grows exponentially.

Post by auto »

auto wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 2:09 pm
frank k wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:12 pm I'm happy to consider any constructive criticism, but I have to be able to understand you first.
Ok, first thing, have you noticed that the eyes are different, that they are not the same. Some people have it more pronounced and call it a lazy eye what seem to be dormant. Other words do you accept there is difference?
What i mean is left eye is active then right eye is dormant.
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Re: If you practice jhāna correctly according to the suttas, the force is always with you and it grows exponentially.

Post by frank k »

I understand the superficial meaning of what you're saying, but have no idea where you're going with this, and am not interested if you start diving into abhidhamma theory. I'm only interested in concrete force and energetic tangible experiences people can sense and describe plainly, like an apple falling on your head or peeing in the snow and you can write your name in it, and shoot it farther than ordinary people, compared to an old weak person wearing adult diapers who can't hold in their pee.

Or like a feeling of a force trying to push through your crown chakra.
Or like getting an erection during avitakka avicara jhana sitting meditation with no perception of lust.
Or the force of your jhana pushing out a giant ear wax popping out of your ear.

tangible, concrete experience anyone who meditates seriously will know about and can describe in plain language.

auto wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:17 pm ...
What i mean is left eye is active then right eye is dormant.
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Re: If you practice jhāna correctly according to the suttas, the force is always with you and it grows exponentially.

Post by auto »

frank k wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:00 pm like an apple falling on your head or peeing in the snow and you can write your name in it, and shoot it farther than ordinary people, compared to an old weak person wearing adult diapers who can't hold in their pee.

tangible, concrete experience anyone who meditates seriously will know about and can describe in plain language.
me too, it is tangible.
My next question would have been if you believe that the active become dormant and dormant become active in intervals and that it is possible to mock practice, at will change the sides(dormant active..).
Better example would have been when air comes from one nostril, can you make it to become other nostril.

Also to add for future direction of the post, during the change of sides there is cessation, seeing stops for a moment, but actually it is not, it is the seeing what sees the darkness the whole time. Cessation doesn't occur when practicing, hence the mock practice. This is rounded out talk, it will expand in details just like further stages unravel things when the change happen.
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