What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
MySpace
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:13 am

Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by MySpace »

MySpace wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:49 am
It means that the meditator perceive attractiveness under the influence of concentration. It ends when concentration ends and not according to meditator's will.
I have read an anecdote before that a monk in Thailand got into such blissful state during concentration meditation that he thought he has attained Nibbana. During the alms, he noticed a very very rare offering of a pot of curry given that it was a poor rural village. He was elated and thought to himself that it must be an offering to congratulate him of his attainment.

The Abbot standing in the front of the queue then help himself with a large scoop of curry and mixed the disgusting fermented rotten meat into it. This got the monk furious, thinking :"why is the abbot so greedy with the curry and why must he ruin it with the rotten meat?". There and then, the illusion of Nibbana ceased too.

This is not an isolated incident as I have heard similar first hand recount by another monk too. If a devoted monk who spend considerable amount of time practising concentration could not make progress, what chance do a layperson like me have? I felt dejected. It also got me thinking if concentration meditation is indeed the correct path if it could not hold up to the slightest temptation.

There must be another way. :jedi:
Don’t neglect wisdom
preserve truth
cultivate relinquishment
and train only for peace ~ MN140
:anjali:
Inedible
Posts: 953
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:55 am
Location: Iowa City

Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Inedible »

Will the book in this thread be updated, revised, and expanded at some point?
User avatar
Kumara
Posts: 995
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:14 am
Contact:

Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Kumara »

Inedible wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 6:03 am Will the book in this thread be updated, revised, and expanded at some point?
It's expanded enough.

I'm presently doing a final round of editing with someone. After that, it'll be officially published in ebook formats. Hard copy to come later.
anagaarika
Posts: 186
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:38 pm

Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by anagaarika »

Bhante, thank you very much for your time and effort! A lot of energy must have gone into investigating this incredibly broad and complex topic. I don´t want to make this too long so let´s go straight to my questions/remarks.

1) One of the things that struck me immediately is your wholesale rejection of any absorption characteristics in relation to jhana. For instance, on page 40, you write (after quoting AN5.113):

In other words, to abide engaging in proper composure, i.e. the four jhānas, we need to accept five-sense impingements. (…) Besides, the above sutta obviously presupposes that one experiences the five senses in the jhānas.

Is this not going too far in your re-interpretation of jhanas as non-absorbed states? From all the information I have read or heard about jhana (no matter whether sutta-style or Visuddhimagga-style), the defining characteristic of jhanic consciousness is that it is divorced from our ordinary sense-experience. From the cosmological perspective, this means that the meditator´s conscioussness temporarily transcends the kama-bhumi and enters rupa-bhumi, which is a difference of quality of consciousness, not just a result of being keenly aware of the sensory input. In other words, the absorbed vs. non-absorbed model controversy is only about the extent to which sensory experience is absent. Some teachers advocate complete shutting off of senses, while others may claim that senses are still active, yet very remote.

What then would be the difference between jhana and let´s say directed contemplation or mindful attending to a daily-life activity, if there is no absorption element whatsoever? In fact, jhanic factors can be present in connection to such mundane activities as watching a football game or a TV show. You can get totally immersed in it, even contemplate the three characteristics, yet no one would argue that this is jhana...

2) On page 15, you claim that the sutta-jhana requires all the seven first path factors whereas the Visuddhimagga-jhana doesn´t. As someone in this thread already suggested, is it not the case that the preparatory work for both styles of jhana is pretty much the same? Would you go as far as to say that the Vissudhimagga jhana doesn´t require good sila and sense-restraint? I think one of the reasons why the Vissudhimagga jhana is so difficult to attain is exactly because it requires developing the rest of the 8fold path nearly to perfection, ideally in a monastic setting.

3) Why did Buddha put so much emphasis on sense-restraint and seclusion, not associating with foolish people, not attending to shows, not giving in to pleasant sensations, eating moderately etc. if all these sense impressions are something that according to your interpretation is no obstacle to jhana? If we accept your claim that "to abide engaging in proper composure, i.e. the four jhānas, we need to accept five-sense impingements", where is the need to restraint one´s senses? If jhana means simply hightened awareness of whatever arises in the mind, then this means you could binge watch TV shows for the entire day and then go do jhana in the evening, accepting all the sense impressions that would be bombarding you and trying to be aware of them. In theory, you can contemplate anicca, dukkha and anatta when watching anything at all - including sport games, soap operas, pornography, anime... So obviously there must be something about sense impressions which is detrimental to jhanic consciousness.

I hope this doesn´t come off as too critical, there were many points in your book where I agree with your interpretation, but these problematic passages need clarification (at least for me) since they are so crucial to the practice. I think you do a very good job in setting the sutta-jhana and Vissudhimagga-jhana apart and describing the differences, yet to me it seems you downplay the sutta jhana to something very easily attainable, to a state which is no different from our ordinary sense-experience-driven consciousness. Even teachers such as Ven. Analayo, who advocates the non-absorbed model of jhana, admit a certain absorption component to the sutta jhana (such as that you cannot hear sounds).

Thank you once again for your great work! Your clarification of the above questions would be deeply appreciated!

:namaste:
User avatar
Kumara
Posts: 995
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:14 am
Contact:

Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Kumara »

anagaarika wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 4:55 pm Bhante, thank you very much for your time and effort! A lot of energy must have gone into investigating this incredibly broad and complex topic. I don´t want to make this too long so let´s go straight to my questions/remarks.

1) One of the things that struck me immediately is your wholesale rejection of any absorption characteristics in relation to jhana. For instance, on page 40, you write (after quoting AN5.113):

In other words, to abide engaging in proper composure, i.e. the four jhānas, we need to accept five-sense impingements. (…) Besides, the above sutta obviously presupposes that one experiences the five senses in the jhānas.

Is this not going too far in your re-interpretation of jhanas as non-absorbed states? From all the information I have read or heard about jhana (no matter whether sutta-style or Visuddhimagga-style), the defining characteristic of jhanic consciousness is that it is divorced from our ordinary sense-experience.
Are those based on how the jhanas is described in the Suttas?

Anyway, I've some doubts that you're referring to "all the information" you've have read or heard about jhana.

2) On page 15, you claim that the sutta-jhana requires all the seven first path factors whereas the Visuddhimagga-jhana doesn´t. As someone in this thread already suggested, is it not the case that the preparatory work for both styles of jhana is pretty much the same? Would you go as far as to say that the Vissudhimagga jhana doesn´t require good sila and sense-restraint? I think one of the reasons why the Vissudhimagga jhana is so difficult to attain is exactly because it requires developing the rest of the 8fold path nearly to perfection, ideally in a monastic setting.
Does the Vism.j. depend on cultivating satipatthana?

3) Why did Buddha put so much emphasis on sense-restraint and seclusion, not associating with foolish people, not attending to shows, not giving in to pleasant sensations, eating moderately etc. if all these sense impressions are something that according to your interpretation is no obstacle to jhana? If we accept your claim that "to abide engaging in proper composure, i.e. the four jhānas, we need to accept five-sense impingements", where is the need to restraint one´s senses?
In the Suttas, the definition of indriyasamvara (sense-restraint), which I prefer to translate literally is "governing of the faculties", is about not grasping. It's not about having no contact. We obviously can't live our lives without being in contact with sense objects, right?

All these things are necessary precisely so that we can "abide engaging in proper composure“.

I hope this doesn´t come off as too critical, there were many points in your book where I agree with your interpretation, but these problematic passages need clarification (at least for me) since they are so crucial to the practice.
I don't find it too critical. Frankly I appreciate it. It's true that much clarification is needed.
User avatar
Kumara
Posts: 995
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:14 am
Contact:

Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Kumara »

anagaarika wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 4:55 pmWhat then would be the difference between jhana and let´s say directed contemplation or mindful attending to a daily-life activity, if there is no absorption element whatsoever?
This is like asking what's the difference between rice and curry if there's no TV.
In fact, jhanic factors can be present in connection to such mundane activities as watching a football game or a TV show. You can get totally immersed in it, even contemplate the three characteristics, yet no one would argue that this is jhana...
"You can get totally immersed in it, even contemplate the three characteristics"—Is that your experience?
User avatar
Kumara
Posts: 995
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:14 am
Contact:

Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Kumara »

anagaarika wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 4:55 pmIf jhana means simply hightened awareness of whatever arises in the mind, then this means you could binge watch TV shows for the entire day and then go do jhana in the evening, accepting all the sense impressions that would be bombarding you and trying to be aware of them. In theory, you can contemplate anicca, dukkha and anatta when watching anything at all - including sport games, soap operas, pornography, anime... So obviously there must be something about sense impressions which is detrimental to jhanic consciousness.
1. I don't translate adhicitta as "heightened awareness".
2. If you binge watch TV shows for the entire day, your mind (citta) will drop in composure/collectedness. It'll take some time and effort to recover it.
3. You can‘t "contemplate anicca, dukkha and anatta when watching ... sport games, soap operas, pornography, anime". You can contemplate them when watching the 6 senses.
anagaarika
Posts: 186
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:38 pm

Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by anagaarika »

Kumara wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 1:20 am
Are those based on how the jhanas is described in the Suttas?

Yes, consider AN10.72, Kantaka Sutta:

At one time The Buddha was abiding in the gabled hall in the Great Forest in Vesāli with many well-known elder disciple bhikkhus such as Ven. Cāla, Ven. Upacāla, Ven. Kukkuṭa, Ven. Kaḷimbha, Ven. Nikaṭa, Ven. Kaṭissa, and other well-known elder bhikkhus. At that time many well-known Licchavīs coming to the Great Forest to see The Buddha, making much noise. Then it occurred to those venerable ones: “These well-known Licchavīs coming to the Great Forest to see The Buddha, making much noise. The Buddha has said that sound (sadda) is a thorn to dhayanas. What if we go to the Gosiṅga Forest. It has less noise, not so crowded, we will have a pleasant abiding.” Then those venerable ones went to the Gosiṅga Forest.

Then The Buddha asked the whereabouts of those elder bhikkhus, and they told him what had happened. And The Buddha addressed the bhikkhus: “Good! Good! Bhikkhus, the great disciples have said it correctly and rightly. Sound is a thorn to dhyanas. These ten are thorns. What ten?

[1]For seclusion, company is a thorn. [2]For developing the sign of loathsomeness, an agreeable sign is a thorn. [3]For sense restrain, sight seeing is a thorn. [4]For leading a holy life, the behaviour of a woman is a torn. [5] For the first dhyana, sounds are a thorn. [6]For the second dhyana, initial and sustained applications of mind are a thorn. [7]For the third dhyana, rapture is a thorn. [8]For the fourth dhyana, inhalation and exhalation is a thorn. [9]For the attainment of cessation, perceptions and feelings are a
thorn. [10]Greed, hatred, and delusion are a thorn.

Bhikkhus, live without thorns, free from thorns. Bhikkhus, the arahants are without thorns, free from thorns.”
To me this clearly implies at least some level of absorption - otherwise it simply makes no sense at all to try to "live without thorns, free from thorns", such as in monasteries or secluded places. If the jhana practice was really about aware observation of sense objects without a trace of immersion, the Buddha´s advice might as well have been something like "go to the market, expose yourself to all the sense impressions and observe how they are anicca, dukkha, anatta". Yet his advice always begins with something like "go to the forest, to the root of a tree, to an abandoned building"...

There is also the story of Mogallana (somewhere in the Vinaya, I guess, can´t find it right now, sorry), where he claims to have heard a sound in 4th jhana. Other monks accuse him of making a false statement, which clearly indicates they would assume that hearing a sound was not possible in the 4th jhana. Buddha then clarifies that Mogallana didn´t lie but briefly fell out of the jhana. His attainment was said to be impure, which conversely indicates that the pure 4th jhana is divorced from the sense of hearing.
Kumara wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 1:20 am
Does the Vism.j. depend on cultivating satipatthana?
Absolutely - how could one achieve deep one-pointed concentration on an object (which is, moreover, so subtle) if one hadn´t developed sati to a great degree before? If you want to exclude all distractions, you have to be immediately aware of them arising in the first place. If you´re trying to keep your attention at the point where the air touches the nostril, for instance, you have to be very adept at noticing distractions as soon as they arise, otherwise your mind won´t "lock" in the right place and there will be no unification. It´s not only about sati - what about the right effort to deal with the hindrances? During your meditation, you have to know what to do when a hindrance arises - there are 4 strategies you have to rehearse all the time so it becomes natural.


Kumara wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 1:20 am
In the Suttas, the definition of indriyasamvara (sense-restraint), which I prefer to translate literally is "governing of the faculties", is about not grasping. It's not about having no contact. We obviously can't live our lives without being in contact with sense objects, right?

Of course, the contact itself is not the problem - if it were so, the shortcut to Nibbana would be to poke out your eyes, cut off your tongue and undergo lobotomy. On the other hand, the propensity towards indulgence is so deep-rooted that the Buddha repeatedly warns against it and exhorts us to shut off unnecessary sense contacts. Consider, among many many others, the advice in MN51: Kandarakasutta:

Once they’ve gone forth, they take up the training and livelihood of the mendicants. (...) They give up unchastity. They are celibate, set apart, avoiding the common practice of sex. (...) They eat in one part of the day, abstaining from eating at night and food at the wrong time. They avoid dancing, singing, music, and seeing shows. They avoid beautifying and adorning themselves with garlands, perfumes, and makeup. They avoid high and luxurious beds. They avoid receiving gold and money, raw grains, raw meat, women and girls, male and female bondservants, goats and sheep, chickens and pigs, elephants, cows, horses, and mares, and fields and land.
The emphasis here is on avoiding. As a monastic yourself, you must know better than me how many rules you undetook to live by. Surely many of them are about limiting contact with sense objects. Isn´t this, after all, the whole point of monasticism? To vastly reduce the drag that excessive sense contact has on consciousness?
anagaarika
Posts: 186
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:38 pm

Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by anagaarika »

Kumara wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:03 am
"You can get totally immersed in it, even contemplate the three characteristics"—Is that your experience?
Yes, my previous experience with "sensory samadhi" (for a lack of a better word :D) is quite extensive. I think most people would have this experience with music - when it all comes together, you direct all your thought and evaluation (vitakka + viccara) towards the musical structures, you get so engrossed in it that the piti arises, you feel happy (sukkha) and your mind gets unified (not necessarily one-pointed, ekagatta). Yet it has nothing to do with jhana since it is not "blameless" (as Buddha puts it) - it might have some of the characteristics, but it´s a gross kind of absorption.

If you ask me about the contemplation of the 3 marks, then the answer is again yes - I was particularly fascinated with the impersonal quality of existence (anatta) years before I took up any formal practice. And I would indeed observe it while doing the most mundane activities, but there was nothing jhanic, or probably even Buddhist, about it. My experience is that after I´ve cut off a lot of unnecessary sense-contact, the inner vision became naturally so much clearer. So there definitely is huge benefit in relieving the mind at least from some portion of the sensory load. It doesn´t mean you will never use your senses again.
User avatar
Kumara
Posts: 995
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:14 am
Contact:

Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Kumara »

Wow.... There's a lot to unpack here....
anagaarika wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:34 am Yes, my previous experience with "sensory samadhi" (for a lack of a better word :D) is quite extensive. I think most people would have this experience with music - when it all comes together, you direct all your thought and evaluation (vitakka + viccara) towards the musical structures, you get so engrossed in it that the piti arises, you feel happy (sukkha) and your mind gets unified (not necessarily one-pointed, ekagatta). Yet it has nothing to do with jhana since it is not "blameless" (as Buddha puts it) - it might have some of the characteristics, but it´s a gross kind of absorption.
I've addressed this in my book.
Last edited by Kumara on Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Kumara
Posts: 995
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:14 am
Contact:

Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Kumara »

anagaarika wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:21 am
Kumara wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 1:20 am
Are those based on how the jhanas is described in the Suttas?

Yes, consider AN10.72, Kantaka Sutta:
It has become obvious to me that you have not actually read my book.
anagaarika
Posts: 186
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:38 pm

Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by anagaarika »

Kumara wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:56 am
anagaarika wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:21 am
Kumara wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 1:20 am
Are those based on how the jhanas is described in the Suttas?

Yes, consider AN10.72, Kantaka Sutta:
It has become obvious to me that you have not actually read my book.
I´m halfway through, I hope to finish it this week. My apologies if you explain these things in the latter half of the book.
MySpace
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:13 am

Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by MySpace »

anagaarika wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:34 am Yes, my previous experience with "sensory samadhi" (for a lack of a better word :D) is quite extensive. I think most people would have this experience with music - when it all comes together, you direct all your thought and evaluation (vitakka + viccara) towards the musical structures, you get so engrossed in it that the piti arises, you feel happy (sukkha) and your mind gets unified (not necessarily one-pointed, ekagatta).
Just my own experience for sharing. When absorbing into music or other objects, I would flow with it. Time flies without my awareness and there is pleasure. However, I don't think there are any evaluation going on as I would be too engross with the object that nothing else's is brought into my awareness.

I agree that awareness of breathing could calm oneself if done properly. However, I fail to see how absorbing into it could bring insights.
Don’t neglect wisdom
preserve truth
cultivate relinquishment
and train only for peace ~ MN140
:anjali:
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Alex123 »

mikenz66 wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:53 pm It is a little odd that Ven Kumāra does not appear to address the views any of the modern teachers that interpret jhāna in the suttas as an absorbed state (Vens Brahm, Sujato, Analayo, etc...). Perhaps I'm missing something, or perhaps he just wants to avoid being argumentative.
I think that is nice that one argues well without pointing fingers directly at this or that person. It is obvious whose teachings are being criticized.
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Alex123 »

I've read large pieces of this very interesting document. Great work, Kumara Bhikkhu!

Makes lots of sense, and fits well what some researchers have came up with.

An additional argument. It seems like one recollects one's past lives (with all the details including name, clan, appearance, etc etc) IN the 4th Jhana. If that is so, then 4th Jhana cannot be super absorption state because you wouldn't be able to make any sense while in it. There is absolutely no hint that one must come out of 4th Jhana in order to do that, or in order to contemplate anicca/dukkha/anatta.

Did you read "The origin of Buddhist meditation" by Alexander Wynne?

He said something very interesting about a strange shift from 2nd jhana to the 3rd&4th Jhana. Pali suggests that in 3rd jhana one comes out of 2nd jhana (cetaso ekodibhava) and views sense objects sato samajano, and the 4th jhana is when one views objects with purified uppekha.
Locked