What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:56 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:51 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:49 am I practice (try to) the method of Ajahn Lee/Thanissaro and have for some years recognized that the Visudhimagga approach taught by those like Ajahn Brahm is different and not really aligned with the Suttas.
And this is based on?
Maybe read the Venerables book.
In short however, the sutta analogies for jhana all imply a full body awareness while Brahm and Visudhimagga teach loss of bodily awareness in jhana.

Also Vism. teaches Samantha and Vipassana as two different practices when suttas say they are actually overlapping qualities of mind that can be emphasized as part of one practice.
Ajahn Brahm is in agreement with this part though.
I’ve read the book. The non-absorbed model of jhāna as put forward in it are very similar to the Dhyāna sutras, which form the basis of meditation in East Asian Buddhism. What is interesting is that up to the Visuddhimagga’s point of absorption, which it considers to be jhāna proper, the practice is exactly the same. So with this in mind the Visuddhimagga model is then jhāna, it’s just the meditator in that system goes a bit further after achieving jhāna by merging with the nimitta (once again, these appear in absorbed and non-absorbed models) and temporarily abandoning the 5 senses. Now, according to the suttas and many who promote the non-absorbed view of jhāna the formless are legitimate attainments. Having a meditation that is without the 5 senses is then legitimate. Based on a non-absorbed view of jhāna Ajahn Brahm, Buddhadasa, Sujato sad those who follow the Visuddhimagga method are practicing legitimate Buddhist meditation and jhāna, it’s just their practice is a little deeper and edges towards the formless. This is of course looking at it from the perspective of jhāna being a non-absorbed state. From those who see jhāna as the opposite, those practicing the non-absorbed model are having legitimate experiences it’s just access concentration rather than jhāna. Either way, the whole jhāna-wars debate seems ill-framed to me and full of misunderstandings on both sides, for some.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Joe.c »

Good book. I find it inline with Sutta. Very much similar to Late Bhante Punnaji work as well. Although his translation is different, the meaning is there as well.

If only Bhante Kumara can relate this jhana explanation with book from Ashin Tejaniya (Don’t look down on the defilements). It might be great. Since samma samadhi can’t stand alone, it needs samma vayama and samma sati. And of course the foundation of right view and morality.

I read this book from Ashin Tejaniya before, but I’m not well versed with Sutta at that time. Now reread Ashin Tejaniya book, i understand it more. It is very inline with Sutta.

I’m wondering why Ashin Tejaniya didn’t use sutta passage in his book.if he did, he will gain more traction.

Thanks for sharing.

Be relax and aware 24 hours on 4 objects. 😀
The more relax (let go) you are, the more happy your mind and body become. The mind become unify.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Ceisiwr »

MySpace wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:22 am I do have doubts on the concentration approach of meditation that produces immense bliss.

I heard that after such blissful meditation, someone could look at a lump of excretion and perceive it as pure and attractive. Now is this wisdom or more delusion on top of ordinary confused mind?

In addition, if mind is so blissful, how does one observe dukkha? It is then taught that one needs to get out of the Jhanic blissful state to start investigation. Isn't it counterintuitive?

Personally, I have encountered very blissful state before. I could feel so contented that I thought that I could just live by my breathing alone forever. However, I don't know how it occurs, why it ends and what insights it brings about.

Furthermore, I've not seen any instructions of observing bright lights so as to get into Jhana in the sutta.

This book really clarifies a lot of such issues with the changes in interpretations and translations.
The ability to see objects as one wishes is referred to a spiritual power, and forms the core of the mastery of the sense bases (also known as the 8 bases of mastery)
“Bhikkhus, for direct knowledge of lust, eight things are to be developed. What eight? (1) One percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, limited, beautiful or ugly. Having overcome them, he is percipient thus: ‘I know, I see.’ (2) One percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, measureless, beautiful or ugly. Having overcome them, he is percipient thus: ‘I know, I see.’ (3) One not percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, limited, beautiful or ugly. Having overcome them, he is percipient thus: ‘I know, I see.’ (4) One not percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, measureless, beautiful or ugly. Having overcome them, he is percipient thus: ‘I know, I see.’ (5) One not percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, blue ones, blue in color, with a blue hue, with a blue tint … (6) … yellow ones, yellow in color, with a yellow hue, with a yellow tint … (7) … red ones, red in color, with a red hue, with a red tint … (8) … white ones, white in color, with a white hue, with a white tint. Having overcome them, he is percipient thus: ‘I know, I see.’ For direct knowledge of lust, these eight things are to be developed.”
https://suttacentral.net/an8.119/en/bodhi

Which, when mastered, leads to the ability to

‘May I dwell perceiving the repulsive in the unrepulsive,’ he dwells perceiving the repulsive therein. If he wishes: ‘May I dwell perceiving the unrepulsive in the repulsive,’ he dwells perceiving the unrepulsive therein. If he wishes: ‘May I dwell perceiving the repulsive in the unrepulsive and in the repulsive,’ he dwells perceiving the repulsive therein. If he wishes: ‘May I dwell perceiving the unrepulsive in the repulsive and in the unrepulsive,’ he dwells perceiving the unrepulsive therein. If he wishes: ‘Avoiding both the unrepulsive and the repulsive, may I dwell equanimously, mindful and clearly comprehending,’ then he dwells therein equanimously, mindful and clearly comprehending."

The ability then to turn repulsive experiences into non-repulsive ones, and visa versa, allows one to master the senses and develop the equanimity needed to enter Jhāna and the formless. This ability to perceiving the repulsive in what we lust after is developed via foulness of the body contemplation or charnel ground contemplations. The ability to see the repulsive as beautiful is developed by way of loving kindness, whilst the ability to see neither repulsive nor beautiful is developed by way of element meditation and the elemental and colour kasiṇas. This then leads to equanimity, tranquility and the Jhānas.
Then Venerable Sāriputta robed up in the morning and, taking his bowl and robe, descended the Vulture’s Peak together with several mendicants. At a certain spot he saw a large tree trunk, and he addressed the mendicants, “Reverends, do you see this large tree trunk?”

“Yes, reverend.”

“If they wanted to, a mendicant with psychic powers who has mastered their mind could determine this tree trunk to be nothing but earth. Why is that? Because the earth element exists in the tree trunk. Relying on that a mendicant with psychic powers could determine it to be nothing but earth. If they wanted to, a mendicant with psychic powers who has mastered their mind could determine this tree trunk to be nothing but water. … Or they could determine it to be nothing but fire … Or they could determine it to be nothing but air … Or they could determine it to be nothing but beautiful … Or they could determine it to be nothing but ugly. Why is that? Because the element of ugliness exists in the tree trunk. Relying on that a mendicant with psychic powers could determine it to be nothing but ugly.”
https://suttacentral.net/an6.41/en/suja ... ript=latin
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by MySpace »

Hi @Ceisiwr,

Thanks for the quote. I have considered it but I find the the outcome of concentration meditation differs from the characteristics described in the sutta.

1} Ability to perceive both ways. Repulsive in unrepulsive and vice versa.

2) Perceiving at will, as one wishes.

3) Ability to stay equanimously, mindful and clearly comprehending,

For concentration meditation:
1) One has an illusion of attractiveness in repulsive. It is an illusion because it is not based upon any real characteristics of the phenomenon. Furthermore, one don't perceive repulsiveness in such blissful state.

2) Perception of attractiveness is at the mercy of absorption, not at will.

3) One will either be drawn into the blissful phenomenon wanting to recreate it or think that it is harmful wanting to reject it. There is no development of equanimity with regards to the phenomenon.

Of course these are mine own observations and experiences. If there are indeed concentration meditation that leads to the qualities highlighted in the Sutta then by all means. Just be truthful to your own practice and evaluation. :anjali:

>‘May I dwell perceiving the repulsive in the unrepulsive,’ he dwells perceiving the repulsive therein. If he wishes: ‘May I dwell perceiving the unrepulsive in the repulsive,’ he dwells perceiving the unrepulsive therein. If he wishes: ‘May I dwell perceiving the repulsive in the unrepulsive and in the repulsive,’ he dwells perceiving the repulsive therein. If he wishes: ‘May I dwell perceiving the unrepulsive in the repulsive and in the unrepulsive,’ he dwells perceiving the unrepulsive therein. If he wishes: ‘Avoiding both the unrepulsive and the repulsive, may I dwell equanimously, mindful and clearly comprehending,’ then he dwells therein equanimously, mindful and clearly comprehending."
Don’t neglect wisdom
preserve truth
cultivate relinquishment
and train only for peace ~ MN140
:anjali:
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Kumara
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Kumara »

MySpace wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:22 am Personally, I have encountered very blissful state before. I could feel so contented that I thought that I could just live by my breathing alone forever.
Haha! I know what you mean.
However, I don't know how it occurs, why it ends and what insights it brings about.
Right. No Dhamma understanding.
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by BrokenBones »

MySpace wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:44 am Hi @Ceisiwr,

Thanks for the quote. I have considered it but I find the the outcome of concentration meditation differs from the characteristics described in the sutta.

1} Ability to perceive both ways. Repulsive in unrepulsive and vice versa.

2) Perceiving at will, as one wishes.

3) Ability to stay equanimously, mindful and clearly comprehending,
....
:goodpost:
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Kumara »

Joe.c wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:33 pm I read this book from Ashin Tejaniya before, but I’m not well versed with Sutta at that time. Now reread Ashin Tejaniya book, i understand it more. It is very inline with Sutta.

I’m wondering why Ashin Tejaniya didn’t use sutta passage in his book.if he did, he will gain more traction.
He's not a scholarly type. And Myanmar monks who are scholarly usually depend heavily on the commentaries.
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Kumara »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:40 pm The ability to see objects as one wishes is referred to a spiritual power, and forms the core of the mastery of the sense bases (also known as the 8 bases of mastery)
“Bhikkhus, for direct knowledge of lust, eight things are to be developed. What eight? (1) One percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, limited, beautiful or ugly. Having overcome them, he is percipient thus: ‘I know, I see.’
And how do you understand "having overcome them" here?
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by waryoffolly »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:16 pm Either way, the whole jhāna-wars debate seems ill-framed to me and full of misunderstandings on both sides.
Sadhu!
https://suttacentral.net/snp4.12/en/suj ... ript=latin
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by BrokenBones »

waryoffolly wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:39 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:16 pm Either way, the whole jhāna-wars debate seems ill-framed to me and full of misunderstandings on both sides.
Sadhu!
https://suttacentral.net/snp4.12/en/suj ... ript=latin
Sadhu indeed. We can only fall back onto the words of the Buddha as the peerless guide & teacher.
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Pulsar »

Dearest OP: Thank you for a brave effort, sometimes on a forum influenced by Abhidhamma and its commentaries it is hard to bring the Buddha back, but those with energy and resolve should not give up.
  • We are your silent admirers.
sometimes resorting to speech.
Regarding Jhana wars? Is it not ridiculous? it is built on a misunderstanding of the 8-fold path. The scholars openly admit MahaSatipatthana sutta to be a fraud. Was that sutta the only fraud? Isn't every sutta that pronounces Arupas as Buddha's teaching partly fraudulent too?
  • Arupas are not part of Samma samadhi.
Why are we fighting the Noble Path?
Are we not supposed to be following it? thank you for clarifying the Noble path, and the Failure of Commentaries. Those who have eyes to see, let them see.
With love :candle:
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by SilaSamadhi8 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:16 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:56 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:51 am

And this is based on?
Maybe read the Venerables book.
In short however, the sutta analogies for jhana all imply a full body awareness while Brahm and Visudhimagga teach loss of bodily awareness in jhana.

Also Vism. teaches Samantha and Vipassana as two different practices when suttas say they are actually overlapping qualities of mind that can be emphasized as part of one practice.
Ajahn Brahm is in agreement with this part though.
I’ve read the book. The non-absorbed model of jhāna as put forward in it are very similar to the Dhyāna sutras, which form the basis of meditation in East Asian Buddhism. What is interesting is that up to the Visuddhimagga’s point of absorption, which it considers to be jhāna proper, the practice is exactly the same. So with this in mind the Visuddhimagga model is then jhāna, it’s just the meditator in that system goes a bit further after achieving jhāna by merging with the nimitta (once again, these appear in absorbed and non-absorbed models) and temporarily abandoning the 5 senses. Now, according to the suttas and many who promote the non-absorbed view of jhāna the formless are legitimate attainments. Having a meditation that is without the 5 senses is then legitimate. Based on a non-absorbed view of jhāna Ajahn Brahm, Buddhadasa, Sujato sad those who follow the Visuddhimagga method are practicing legitimate Buddhist meditation and jhāna, it’s just their practice is a little deeper and edges towards the formless. This is of course looking at it from the perspective of jhāna being a non-absorbed state. From those who see jhāna as the opposite, those practicing the non-absorbed model are having legitimate experiences it’s just access concentration rather than jhāna. Either way, the whole jhāna-wars debate seems ill-framed to me and full of misunderstandings on both sides, for some.

Thank you for the response Ceisiwr,

To reiterate the point you made about the 5 senses there is a video where Bhante Sujato put it very well (which is in favor of the absorbed Jhana view):

If one lives inside a house saying he is not attached to the house then someone can come and ask: "If you are not attached to it why don't you leave it then?". The same applies to the "house" of the 5 senses.

There is also that Sutta where Mahamoggallana claimed he was in 4th Jhana when he heard a sound so the Bhikkhus hearing this went to report to the Buddha and the blessed one said the attainment of Jhana was not purified. 2 things come into my mind:

1. The fact the Bhikkhus disbelieved him implies that they thought the correct Jhana is the absorbed one.
2. The Blessed one did not scold him for lying or misrepresenting the Dhamma, he simply explained that the attainment was not yet pure.

My assumption is both the non-absorbed and absorbed Jhana attainments are valid for the path. The refinement/perfection of a Jhana was taught for those who had very sharp concentration like Venerable Mahamoggallana.
This view would also agree with the commentaries/Visudhimagga since there it is said by the Theras that Access concentration paired with insight (Vipassana) is enough for the attainment of Nibbana no? Within this context the "non-absorbed Jhana" attainment would be considered acess concentration.


Anyways, I'm waiting for your response but your comment pretty much clarified it for me.


With Metta.
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by MySpace »

I would like to post a question for contemplation.
:buddha1:
The Buddha described the six senses as empty and anything that arises out of them as insubstantial too. Those insubstantial objects or phenomena should not be craved upon or clinged onto lest they lead to affliction.

In this case, why will he preach absorption into the very same objects or phenomena, whether gross or refine, gratify in it and forget about the bigger context of the aforementioned right view? Isn't that strange?
:shrug:
Don’t neglect wisdom
preserve truth
cultivate relinquishment
and train only for peace ~ MN140
:anjali:
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by BrokenBones »

MySpace wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:45 pm I would like to post a question for contemplation.
:buddha1:
The Buddha described the six senses as empty and anything that arises out of them as insubstantial too. Those insubstantial objects or phenomena should not be craved upon or clinged onto lest they lead to affliction.

In this case, why will he preach absorption into the very same objects or phenomena, whether gross or refine, gratify in it and forget about the bigger context of the aforementioned right view? Isn't that strange?
:shrug:
Very strange indeed.

I've raised the point before regarding mindfulness of body... such an important part of the Buddha's teaching... do jhana one way and the body disappears... no mindfulness of body to be done there.

Do jhana another way and the body is right there with you.

Which way people choose is entirely up to them but personally... only one way makes sense.
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Pulsar »

MySpace wrote
In this case, why will he preach absorption into the very same objects or phenomena, whether gross or refine, gratify in it and forget about the bigger context of the aforementioned right view? Isn't that strange?
This is kinda way the vibajjavadins sutta compilers reinterpreted Buddha according to Abhidhmma. if you read the sutta pitaka with open eyes, you notice how much the ideas of the tradition got written into the suttas.
For the wise meditator there are the suttas like Sandha sutta, that say
  • the thoroughbred leaves all objects behind
the donkey meditator (in V. Sujato's words) clings to the objects, and cannot be released from suffering.
Suffering is ingrained in every object we cling to, or pursue. Good question, thank you.
Regards :candle:
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