What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
Joe.c
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Joe.c »

Arupas are not part of Samma samadhi.
Yes, it is not. But Buddha is encouraging his student to go up to Arupa and have an experience it as well. Especially right now, without any Buddha present it is better to understand the whole 12 link works and confirm your experience with Sutta.

Buddha has also awaken by go up to Arupa and then proceed to cessation of feeling and perception. I bet he go up and down lot of times to fully understand the whole 12 links.

Of course, One can fully awaken even with 1st jhana by dwelling on it constantly and understand the experience and let go. There is sutta on AN 9.36.

What people don’t understand about jhana is. The knowledge will mature after you know all the conditions and practice over and over.

As Buddha describe:

Cakkhu udapadi, Nana Udapadi, Panna Udapadi, vijja udapadi, Aloko Udapadi.

First, See, then Know, then Wisdom, then conscious, and finally the light (fully understood). These processes need practice over and over in daily life, not just sit for 1-2 hours.
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Pulsar
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Pulsar »

Joe.c wrote
Buddha has also awaken by go up to Arupa and then proceed to cessation of feeling and perception. I bet he go up and down lot of times to fully understand the whole 12 links.
Where in the Nidana Samyutta do you find a reference to Arupas?
Buddha woke up without the assistance of Arupas, according to Nidana Samyutta.
You wrote
But Buddha is encouraging his student to go up to Arupa and have an experience it as well. Especially right now, without any Buddha present it is better to understand the whole 12 link works and confirm your experience with Sutta.
Where in the sutta pitaka does Buddha say "When I am not around, it might help you to deviate from the 8-fold path?".
Initially you agreed that the
Arupas are not part of Samma Samadhi.
Regards :candle:
Joe.c
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Joe.c »

Pulsar wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:24 pm Where in the Nidana Samyutta do you find a reference to Arupas?
Buddha woke up without the assistance of Arupas, according to Nidana Samyutta.
Where in the sutta pitaka does Buddha say "When I am not around, it might help you to deviate from the 8-fold path?".
Initially you agreed that the
Arupas are not part of Samma Samadhi.
Regards :candle:
Hm…with your argument all Arupas sutta are to be avoided. That would be silly, there are many of these sutta such as in Citta samyutta or Maha Vedalla sutta or Cula Vedalla Sutta etc. These sutta described about cessation of perception and feeling.

I know Majority of the devotees of Buddha fully awaken just by using 4 jhanas. These arahant is called free by wisdom (panna vimutti). It is a shortcut offer by Buddha. That I understood. But skilled one, he encouraged them to go up to Arupas and then go to cessation of perception and feeling (sanna vedayita nirodha).

Also on Mahaparinibbana Sutta, Buddha also went up and then enter 4th jhana before his parinibbana.

Anyway, I sense you have strong opinions based on your previous postings. So i dont want to waste my time to convince you. But i recommend try to practice and experience. Maybe you will understand. From experience, one will gain confidence. Holding a view will never lead to anywhere.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Pulsar »

Joe.c wrote
Also on Mahaparinibbana Sutta, Buddha also went up and then enter 4th jhana before his parinibbana.
SN 35. 238 writes,
Arahants have crossed over the great expanse of sensuality, of existence, of views, and the flood of ignorance,
is no more at the near shore, which is dangerous and fearful.
  • Arahants have reached the far shore, attained nibbana
according to this sutta.
They have left behind the raft of the 8-fold path. They do not carry the Raft on their shoulder.
Samma samadhi is part of that Raft.
Why did Buddha have to practice Samma Samadhi, right before passing away? Was he not already beyond the sensory world?
Can you pl. explain?
With love :candle:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Ceisiwr »

Kumara wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:20 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:40 pm The ability to see objects as one wishes is referred to a spiritual power, and forms the core of the mastery of the sense bases (also known as the 8 bases of mastery)
“Bhikkhus, for direct knowledge of lust, eight things are to be developed. What eight? (1) One percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, limited, beautiful or ugly. Having overcome them, he is percipient thus: ‘I know, I see.’
And how do you understand "having overcome them" here?
The Atthasālinī explains it in terms of mastering the meditation and the Jhānas. This is because it takes form and external beautiful and ugly forms to be one's own body and the external kasiṇa or nimitta. In comparison the Sarvāstivāda-Vaibhāṣikas argues that it means overcoming lust and hate in relation to external forms. I'm inclined to agree with the Sarvāstivādins here. I understand the 8 bases in the following way

1st Mastery
"I “One percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, limited, beautiful or ugly. Having overcome them, he is percipient thus: ‘I know, I see.’ This is the first basis of overcoming."

One percipient of forms internally: Mindfulness of the body by way of foulness, or charnel ground contemplations.

sees forms externally: external forms.

limited, beautiful or ugly: "Beautiful" are forms which are the basis for lust (someone we are sexually attracted to). "Ugly" are forms which are the basis for ill-will (someone who is angrily swearing at us). Limited here means a limited control over the sense faculties. A limited control is applying loving-kindness to the repulsive, or foulness to the non-repulsive but yet with some measure of mastery.

2nd Mastery
II “One percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, measureless, beautiful or ugly. Having overcome them, he is percipient thus: ‘I know, I see.’ This is the second basis of overcoming."

One percipient of forms internally: Mindfulness of the body by way of foulness, or charnel ground contemplations.

sees forms externally: external forms.

measureless, beautiful or ugly: Beautiful and ugly are the same as before. Measureless here means a greater mastery of the senses so that loving-kindness or foulness are applied to external forms without limit. The Vaibhāṣikas give an example of this stage where one sees skeletons everywhere, instead of people. This is done whilst in the 1st or 2nd Jhāna according to them. I'm somewhat open to this, but although perhaps this is happening in access concentration instead.


3rd and 4th Base
III “One not percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, limited, beautiful or ugly. Having overcome them, he is percipient thus: ‘I know, I see.’ This is the third basis of overcoming.

IV “One not percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, measureless, beautiful or ugly. Having overcome them, he is percipient thus: ‘I know, I see.’ This is the fourth basis of overcoming."


“One not percipient of forms internally": One is no longer aware of their own body, only external forms. This is the beginning of Jhāna IMO, based on an even greater mastery of the senses. The rest is as explained before.

5th to 8th Base
These are the colour kasiṇas. I see a move here from the 2nd base from seeing foulness or using loving-kindness to element meditation and the kasiṇas. The preceding stages match with the 1st and 2nd liberations (One having form sees external form, one not perceiving form sees external forms). Stages 5-8 then match the 3rd liberation (He is focused on the beautiful). I take the beautiful here to mean the 3rd Jhāna. The Vaibhāṣikas were of the same opinion. Element meditation is very often tied to the development of equanimity, and it's easy to see a movement from seeing external forms as just mere elements (thus overcoming lust and hate completely) and the 8 kasiṇas. At this stage then, not perceiving their own body and immersed in samādhi, the meditator sees everything in terms of the kasiṇas and thus has equanimity. This is then developed to the 4th Jhāna. With the senses thus fully mastered, the meditator can move into the formless and achieve the remaining 4 liberations.

IMO then when the bases of mastery have been mastered, which is another way of talking about mastering the senses, this then fulfils the 8 liberations and the development of the kasiṇas. Once all 8 bases have been mastered and the liberations fulfilled, at least the first 3, then the meditator has such control over the mind that they can, at will,
If he wishes: ‘May I dwell perceiving the repulsive in the unrepulsive,’ he dwells perceiving the repulsive therein. If he wishes: ‘May I dwell perceiving the unrepulsive in the repulsive,’ he dwells perceiving the unrepulsive therein. If he wishes: ‘May I dwell perceiving the repulsive in the unrepulsive and in the repulsive,’ he dwells perceiving the repulsive therein. If he wishes: ‘May I dwell perceiving the unrepulsive in the repulsive and in the unrepulsive,’ he dwells perceiving the unrepulsive therein. If he wishes: ‘Avoiding both the unrepulsive and the repulsive, may I dwell equanimously, mindful and clearly comprehending,’ then he dwells therein equanimously, mindful and clearly comprehending."
This in turn is tied to the message of suttas like SN 35.247, which talks of of mindfulness as a post for the senses (described as animals in that sutta). I also think the following sutta is describing the ability to see objects as one wishes, based on mastery of the 8 bases, and so is talking about the same thing as the paragraph above but in a different way
“If they wanted to, a mendicant with psychic powers who has mastered their mind could determine this tree trunk to be nothing but earth. Why is that? Because the earth element exists in the tree trunk. Relying on that a mendicant with psychic powers could determine it to be nothing but earth. If they wanted to, a mendicant with psychic powers who has mastered their mind could determine this tree trunk to be nothing but water. … Or they could determine it to be nothing but fire … Or they could determine it to be nothing but air … Or they could determine it to be nothing but beautiful … Or they could determine it to be nothing but ugly. Why is that? Because the element of ugliness exists in the tree trunk. Relying on that a mendicant with psychic powers could determine it to be nothing but ugly.”
https://suttacentral.net/an6.41/en/suja ... ript=latin

The 8 bases for mastery then are benchmarks to check one's progress against. To fulfil the practice requires mastering our likes and aversions, so as to develop the equanimity necessary for Jhāna, the formless and ultimately awakening.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Ceisiwr »

MySpace wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:44 am Hi @Ceisiwr,

Thanks for the quote. I have considered it but I find the the outcome of concentration meditation differs from the characteristics described in the sutta.

1} Ability to perceive both ways. Repulsive in unrepulsive and vice versa.

2) Perceiving at will, as one wishes.

3) Ability to stay equanimously, mindful and clearly comprehending,

For concentration meditation:
1) One has an illusion of attractiveness in repulsive. It is an illusion because it is not based upon any real characteristics of the phenomenon. Furthermore, one don't perceive repulsiveness in such blissful state.
In order to see the repulsive in the non-repulsive you have to focus on something to overcome the repulsive. In this case, concentrating on seeing them instead as a rotting corpse some unattractive part of their body.
2) Perception of attractiveness is at the mercy of absorption, not at will.
I don't know what this means?
3) One will either be drawn into the blissful phenomenon wanting to recreate it or think that it is harmful wanting to reject it. There is no development of equanimity with regards to the phenomenon.
Well one of the fetters is clinging to Jhāna or the formless. Either way, according to absorbed models of Jhāna you can't get to that state without equanimity and sense-restraint. As I say, up to the point of absorption the practice and experiences are the same.
In addition, if mind is so blissful, how does one observe dukkha? It is then taught that one needs to get out of the Jhanic blissful state to start investigation. Isn't it counterintuitive?
By reviewing. If one has not died, how does an Arahant with no psychic powers understand that former intentions are a condition for consciousness in this life? Part of awakening is in seeing how very blissful or peaceful meditative states are impermanent, dukkha and not-self. You can't do that when you are in the meditation, because it hasn't fallen away yet. Personally I think insight can occur when directly experiencing or post the experience. Insight can be varied, just like people and their experiences are. Everyone experiences meditation slightly differently.
Furthermore, I've not seen any instructions of observing bright lights so as to get into Jhana in the sutta.
No, but the suttas were never meant to contain every bit of detail. For example, the 8 bases of overcoming or the kasiṇas are never explained nor how perfecting the 4 brahmavihārās leads to the formless. This is where tradition, from any school, is important. Without meditative practices and insights passed down through the ages, we would just be sat in the dark guessing what this all means. Now nimittas occur in both absorbed and non-absorbed model of Jhāna. This makes sense, since the nimitta is merely the mind making sense of such a sublime state. The debate is around if we need to absorb into it or not. The non-absorbed folks say no, which is fine. The absorbed folks say yes, which is also fine. For the absorbed, it is fine because even if it isn't Jhāna it's clearly moving in someway towards the formless. Not a bad thing, based on the suttas.
This book really clarifies a lot of such issues with the changes in interpretations and translations.
I'm glad you have got a lot out of Bhante's book :anjali:
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Joe.c »

Pulsar wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:07 pm
Arahants have crossed over the great expanse of sensuality, of existence, of views, and the flood of ignorance,
is no more at the near shore, which is dangerous and fearful.
  • Arahants have reached the far shore, attained nibbana
according to this sutta.
They have left behind the raft of the 8-fold path. They do not carry the Raft on their shoulder.
Samma samadhi is part of that Raft.
Why did Buddha have to practice Samma Samadhi, right before passing away? Was he not already beyond the sensory world?
Can you pl. explain?
With love :candle:
I'll try my last time to convince you.

To reach Nibbana, you need a tool. You need mind to experience/perceive Nibbana. Therefore, Nibbana is not without mind or without body. Most people misunderstood about Nibbana. Whether it is 1st jhana or the rest. Arahant has at least 1st jhana on their day to day activity. When they talk, they will be at least at 1st jhana. When they don't talk, it is at least 2nd jhana (if there is no vitakka vicara, they maintain noble silence). But their mind remain in the jhana, they can move their mind around jhana easily by relaxing further (i.e. not moving, just focus on the mind movement up to cessation).

You can see Sariputta and Buddha explain about Nibbana on AN 11.7:
“Could it be, reverend Sāriputta, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this? They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth … And they wouldn’t perceive what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. And yet they would still perceive.”

“It could be, Reverend Ānanda.”

“But how could this be?”

“Ānanda, it’s when a mendicant perceives:

‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment (Nibbana).’

That’s how a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth … And they wouldn’t perceive what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. And yet they would still perceive.”
Also for Buddha or Arahant even if they remain in jhana, they don't really identify which jhana etc. They just let the mind still/free/relax. Why? because they have remove conceit, ego, etc to become selfless. See SN 35.69 or SN 28.1
SN 35.69:
So why would there be an impairment in my body or deterioration of my faculties?”
“That must be because Venerable Upasena has long ago totally eradicated ego, possessiveness, and the underlying tendency to conceit.
SN 28.1: (I know you mentioned this Sutta is not original in other posting)
But it didn’t occur to me:
‘I am entering the first jhana’ or ‘I have entered the first jhana’ or ‘I am emerging from the first jhana’.”
“That must be because Venerable Sāriputta has long ago totally eradicated ego, possessiveness, and the underlying tendency to conceit.
You said:
Why did Buddha have to practice Samma Samadhi, right before passing away?
This is not practice, it is just to clear the mind. Only at 4th Jhana the mind is perfectly clear with no feeling of Dukkha and no feeling of Sukha.
When one gets old, it is much more difficult to get to higher jhana. Buddha and the rest of nobles preach to liberate people, they don't just sit and not moving during the day. Although from time to time, they prefer seclusion to rest the mind on higher jhana.

During the final day, if you read the Mahaparinibbana sutta, Buddha and others travel long distance. When one have lot of activities, the body get work out. This means your mind will need to work harder to maintain the peaceful. Hence, It is very difficult for the mind to maintain 4th jhana. The mind will fall back to 3rd jhana or other lower jhana.

Anyway, there will be controversy if I stated this. But this is how I understand.

Each beings has to develop their own path. Your path may be slightly different than mine or others. You might need to develop up to 4th jhana or maybe up to cessation of perception and feeling. Who knows, but only you know about your mind. Especially now, there is no Buddha around to read your mind. :)

But The door is still the same, that is Right View. When one has entered and experienced the path, they should say the same way as how Buddha and other noble devotees describe in the Sutta (4 Nikayas some other minor collection). Any deviation, one will know that they might have gone to the wrong path or they haven't know/understand the path yet. Knowledge needs time to mature.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Ceisiwr »

Joe.c wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:50 pm
Arahant has at least 1st jhana on their day to day activity. When they talk, they will be at least at 1st jhana. When they don't talk, it is at least 2nd jhana (if there is no vitakka vicara, they maintain noble silence). But their mind remain in the jhana,
This is doubtful. The texts talk of the Buddha and Arahants entering different attainments, including the 1st Jhana.
Therefore, Nibbana is not without mind or without body
Nibbana has a mind and body? Are you sure about that?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Kumara »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:36 pm
Kumara wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:20 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:40 pm The ability to see objects as one wishes is referred to a spiritual power, and forms the core of the mastery of the sense bases (also known as the 8 bases of mastery)
And how do you understand "having overcome them" here?
The Atthasālinī explains it in terms of mastering the meditation and the Jhānas. .... To fulfil the practice requires mastering our likes and aversions, so as to develop the equanimity necessary for Jhāna, the formless and ultimately awakening.
Actually I asked your personal understanding, not the texts'.
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Joe.c »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:01 am
This is doubtful. The texts talk of the Buddha and Arahants entering different attainments, including the 1st Jhana.
Let me ask you when one has fully got rid of 5 hindrances, where will their mind resting? Aren't they in jhana or something outside jhana?

With this answer i will know whether you understand or not.
Nibbana has a mind and body? Are you sure about that?
Yeah there is always a doubt for person who doesn't know Nibbana. 😅

Please read Late Bhikkhu Buddhadasa book on Nibbana for Everyone or Late Bhante Punnaji. Both of them reject commentaries and based their teaching solely on Sutta.

They described slightly different but the meaning is there.

To summarize,

Bhikkhu Buddhadasa said you need mind to experience Nibbana.

Bhante Punnaji said Nibbana is imperturbable serenity of mind (mind not moving to anything that happen in the world, no tanha).

In short, Nibbana is experiential mode. Most people is on existensial mode (with I). Nibbana is unconditioned where there is no craving (no tanha, no greed, no delusion, no ill-will) & no more ignorance (avijja) or there is stopping of existence (no bhava).

Check AN 11.7 and AN 10.6. the definition of Nibbana is clearly described in there.

But when arahant still have the being body/mind, they will be in Nibbana with leftover mode. When body/mind is gone, the nibbana without any leftover. As described on ITI 44.

But your term of Nibbana in your mind maybe slightly different. 😅 So you need to know what is your Nibbana. As long as the meaning is there then you are still good.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by MySpace »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:55 pm
MySpace wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:44 am
2) Perception of attractiveness is at the mercy of absorption, not at will.
I don't know what this means?

It means that the meditator perceive attractiveness under the influence of concentration. It ends when concentration ends and not according to meditator's will.
Don’t neglect wisdom
preserve truth
cultivate relinquishment
and train only for peace ~ MN140
:anjali:
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Ceisiwr »

Kumara wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:55 am
Actually I asked your personal understanding, not the texts'.
I gave you my view Bhante.

“In comparison the Sarvāstivāda-Vaibhāṣikas argues [sic] that it means overcoming lust and hate in relation to external forms. I'm inclined to agree with the Sarvāstivādins here. I understand the 8 bases in the following way”
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Ceisiwr »

MySpace wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:49 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:55 pm
MySpace wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:44 am
I don't know what this means?

It means that the meditator perceive attractiveness under the influence of concentration. It ends when concentration ends and not according to meditator's will.
Well I see such exercises as a means to abandon the hindrances and develop equanimity so as to attain Jhana. Not even the Buddha went around seeing everything as unattractive. He still experienced pleasant and unpleasant contacts. Once the mind has been mastered then at will they can see the repulsive in the non-repulsive etc.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Ceisiwr »

Joe.c wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:31 am
Let me ask you when one has fully got rid of 5 hindrances, where will their mind resting? Aren't they in jhana or something outside jhana?
They would be in a non-meditative state.

Then the Buddha entered the first absorption. Emerging from that, he entered the second absorption. Emerging from that, he successively entered into and emerged from the third absorption, the fourth absorption, the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness, and the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. Then he entered the cessation of perception and feeling. - DN 16

Here it is said the Buddha entered the Jhānas, not that he was already in them.
Yeah there is always a doubt for person who doesn't know Nibbana.
Perhaps a little more humility on your part, or are you claiming some level of awakening here?
Please read Late Bhikkhu Buddhadasa book on Nibbana for Everyone or Late Bhante Punnaji. Both of them reject commentaries and based their teaching solely on Sutta.

They described slightly different but the meaning is there.

To summarize,

Bhikkhu Buddhadasa said you need mind to experience Nibbana.

Bhante Punnaji said Nibbana is imperturbable serenity of mind (mind not moving to anything that happen in the world, no tanha).

In short, Nibbana is experiential mode. Most people is on existensial mode (with I). Nibbana is unconditioned where there is no craving (no tanha, no greed, no delusion, no ill-will) & no more ignorance (avijja) or there is stopping of existence (no bhava).
I used to be a fan of Ven. Buddhadasa. Whilst it is true that he departed radically from the commentaries in certain areas, in others he was in agreement. He agreed in regards to Jhāna being an absorbed state (which would mean the Buddha wasn't always in Jhāna). Likewise when Ven. Buddhadasa says that nibbāna is an element which is cognised at the mind base, he is following closely the view of the Abhidhamma and commentaries. I'm less familiar with Ven. Punnaji but if he said that nibbāna is a mind state then nibbāna would be impermanent, thus not being nibbāna.
But when arahant still have the being body/mind, they will be in Nibbana with leftover mode. When body/mind is gone, the nibbana without any leftover. As described on ITI 44.
None of them means that nibbāna is without mind & body, but perhaps English is not your first language.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Joe.c »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:20 pm They would be in a non-meditative state.

Then the Buddha entered the first absorption. Emerging from that, he entered the second absorption. Emerging from that, he successively entered into and emerged from the third absorption, the fourth absorption, the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness, and the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. Then he entered the cessation of perception and feeling. - DN 16

Here it is said the Buddha entered the Jhānas, not that he was already in them.
This is why people got confused when recitation being transcribed into text. I guess only practitioners through direct experince will know this for certain. 😅

Let me ask you again. Let say a person graduate from university, will they loss all of their knowledge from their study in the university? Do they still have to carry their diploma and tell everyone that he has graduated?

Likewise a Buddha/arahant who has mastered his mind and got rid of 5 hindrances & avijja & tanha, he will always in meditative state (pure mind + knowledge) throughout the day. Their mind is freely move around jhana depending on their activities on their daily life. They don’t have to sit to meditate. Only when they need to go deep jhana, they will sit. Like Buddha always said:
Like a strong man might extend his drawn-in arm or draw in his extended arm
That is how quick they can move their mind around jhana.

But hey, i’m just telling you. One needs to verify and investigate any claim. Likewise investigate the sutta/discourse according to your own experience. Or even investigate commentaries and abhidhamma with your own experience. Otherwise it is just silabataparamasa. Someone said something, you just accepted it without direct experience. The fetter needs to be broken by your own, not by others or even by a Buddha.
Perhaps a little more humility on your part, or are you claiming some level of awakening here?
Awakening or not, It is none of your business 😅, I’m just replying to your question. But you are dodging the question. 😀
(which would mean the Buddha wasn't always in Jhāna). Likewise when Ven. Buddhadasa says that nibbāna is an element which is cognised at the mind base, he is following closely the view of the Abhidhamma and commentaries.
None of them means that nibbāna is without mind & body, but perhaps English is not your first language.
Late Ven. Buddhadasa rejected commentaries and abhidhamma. See below.
In his time, Ajahn Buddhadāsa was revolutionary for preferring the Pāli language record of Buddha’s discourses, especially what struck him as the earlier, more authentic strata, over the commentaries and so-called Abhidhamma that developed in later centuries and flourished as Buddha-Dhamma spread through various schools, including what fairly recently came to be known as “Theravāda.”
English is not my first language. But what is your Nibbana? You haven’t answer my question. How can one get to Nibbana here and now? Does Arahant/Buddha always in Nibbana state through out their daily life? Do they need to come out of Nibbana when they speak?

No need to answer if you don’t know. But please find out for your own good. 😀
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
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