Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Pondera
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Re: Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm

Post by Pondera »

Ontheway wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:21 pm See Culavedalla Suttanta
"Now, lady, how does the attainment of the cessation of perception & feeling come about?"

"The thought does not occur to a monk as he is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling that 'I am about to attain the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I am attaining the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I have attained the cessation of perception & feeling.' Instead, the way his mind has previously been developed leads him to that state."

"But when a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, which things cease first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications."[1]

"Now, lady, how does emergence from the cessation of perception & feeling come about?"

"The thought does not occur to a monk as he is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling that 'I am about to emerge from the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I am emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I have emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling.' Instead, the way his mind has previously been developed leads him to that state."

"But when a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, which things arise first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, mental fabrications arise first, then bodily fabrications, then verbal fabrications."

"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, lady, how many contacts make contact?"

"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, three contacts make contact: contact with emptiness, contact with the signless, & contact with the undirected."

"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, lady, to what does his mind lean, to what does it tend, to what does it incline?"

"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, his mind leans to seclusion, tends to seclusion, inclines to seclusion."
This is the description of "Nirodha samapatti".
Notice the following
"Very good, venerable sir." And, delighting in and approving of Ven. Kamabhu's answer, Citta asked him a further question: "What is the difference between a monk who has died & passed away and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling?"

"In the case of a monk who has died & passed away, his bodily fabrication has ceased & subsided, verbal fabrication has ceased & subsided, mental fabrication has ceased & subsided, his life force is totally ended, his heat is dissipated, and his faculties are shut down. But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrication has ceased & subsided, verbal fabrication has ceased & subsided, mental fabrication has ceased & subsided, his life force is not ended, his heat is not dissipated, and his faculties are bright & clear. This is the difference between a monk who has died & passed away and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling."[2]
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

If his faculties are bright and clear, then how is there a cessation of perception and feeling?
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Re: Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm

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Pondera wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:54 pm

Well. We assume it isn’t.

Then we have Nirodha of sight and things heard and also objects of the mind but not necessarily things smelled tasted or touched.

So, in this sutta where the Buddha is referring to subsequently higher and higher attainments we get this very weird Nirodha of some senses but not others at the end.

So the Buddha has preached the highest attainment to be a weird Nirodha where sight, mental objects, and things heard come to their end but not taste, touch, or smell.

This peculiar Nirodha has never been declared by the Buddha which means that all of the above is an absurdity. So we throw that notion out.

So it must be something else. “Things explored by the mind”. This alludes to the five senses. Therefore, with a little investigation it appears he is speaking about nirodha samapatti.
The only time nirodha comes up is in relation to the contemplation that the cessation of craving is peaceful. For the previous it is said there is no manasi. Manasi is a way of talking about manasikāra. There is manasi occurring, and so manasikāra, within the meditation. Where there is manasikāra there is vedanā & sañña. What this text seems to be saying then is not the cessation of those things, but simply non-attention to them. What is being given attention instead, and so also perceived and felt, is the contemplation on nibbāna. I would guess that what is in mind here is the signless.
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Re: Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm

Post by Ontheway »

Pondera wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:58 pm
Ontheway wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:21 pm See Culavedalla Suttanta
"Now, lady, how does the attainment of the cessation of perception & feeling come about?"

"The thought does not occur to a monk as he is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling that 'I am about to attain the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I am attaining the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I have attained the cessation of perception & feeling.' Instead, the way his mind has previously been developed leads him to that state."

"But when a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, which things cease first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications."[1]

"Now, lady, how does emergence from the cessation of perception & feeling come about?"

"The thought does not occur to a monk as he is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling that 'I am about to emerge from the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I am emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I have emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling.' Instead, the way his mind has previously been developed leads him to that state."

"But when a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, which things arise first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, mental fabrications arise first, then bodily fabrications, then verbal fabrications."

"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, lady, how many contacts make contact?"

"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, three contacts make contact: contact with emptiness, contact with the signless, & contact with the undirected."

"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, lady, to what does his mind lean, to what does it tend, to what does it incline?"

"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, his mind leans to seclusion, tends to seclusion, inclines to seclusion."
This is the description of "Nirodha samapatti".
Notice the following
"Very good, venerable sir." And, delighting in and approving of Ven. Kamabhu's answer, Citta asked him a further question: "What is the difference between a monk who has died & passed away and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling?"

"In the case of a monk who has died & passed away, his bodily fabrication has ceased & subsided, verbal fabrication has ceased & subsided, mental fabrication has ceased & subsided, his life force is totally ended, his heat is dissipated, and his faculties are shut down. But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrication has ceased & subsided, verbal fabrication has ceased & subsided, mental fabrication has ceased & subsided, his life force is not ended, his heat is not dissipated, and his faculties are bright & clear. This is the difference between a monk who has died & passed away and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling."[2]
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

If his faculties are bright and clear, then how is there a cessation of perception and feeling?
Do you know what are the faculties?
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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Re: Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm

Post by Pondera »

Ontheway wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:49 pm
Pondera wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:58 pm
Ontheway wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:21 pm See Culavedalla Suttanta



This is the description of "Nirodha samapatti".
Notice the following
"Very good, venerable sir." And, delighting in and approving of Ven. Kamabhu's answer, Citta asked him a further question: "What is the difference between a monk who has died & passed away and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling?"

"In the case of a monk who has died & passed away, his bodily fabrication has ceased & subsided, verbal fabrication has ceased & subsided, mental fabrication has ceased & subsided, his life force is totally ended, his heat is dissipated, and his faculties are shut down. But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrication has ceased & subsided, verbal fabrication has ceased & subsided, mental fabrication has ceased & subsided, his life force is not ended, his heat is not dissipated, and his faculties are bright & clear. This is the difference between a monk who has died & passed away and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling."[2]
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

If his faculties are bright and clear, then how is there a cessation of perception and feeling?
Do you know what are the faculties?
At first I assumed it meant “sense faculties”. But it could mean “spiritual faculties” - faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration, and wisdom.

If that’s the case ignore my question. The problem solves itself. You can’t have clear and bright mindfulness (for example) in nirodha samapatti without being aware of your condition. The same applies to faith, energy, and wisdom.

I will leave concentration alone - because of obvious discrepancies in peoples view of what that means (either sutta or commentary interpretation).

Anyway. Thank you for pointing out the solution to the problem.
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Re: Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm

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Householder, your faculties are so very clear,
“vippasannāni kho te, gahapati, indriyāni;
and your complexion is pure and bright.
parisuddho mukhavaṇṇo pariyodāto.
When a mendicant has attained the cessation of perception and feeling, their physical, verbal, and mental processes have ceased and stilled. But their vitality is not spent; their warmth is not dissipated; and their faculties are very clear.
Yo ca khvāyaṁ, gahapati, bhikkhu saññāvedayitanirodhaṁ samāpanno, tassapi kāyasaṅkhāro niruddho paṭippassaddho, vacīsaṅkhāro niruddho paṭippassaddho, cittasaṅkhāro niruddho paṭippassaddho, āyu aparikkhīṇo, usmā avūpasantā, indriyāni vippasannāni.
It seems absurd that someone would approach the Bhagavan and remark on his spiritual faculties.

So, it would appear that my initial assumption was correct. Ie. clear faculties refers to sense faculties. Again you are posed with the same question.
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Re: Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm

Post by SarathW »

What is the Pali word for stillness and concentration in this case?
Is it Samadhi and Jhana?
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Re: Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:05 pm
Pondera wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:54 pm

Well. We assume it isn’t.

Then we have Nirodha of sight and things heard and also objects of the mind but not necessarily things smelled tasted or touched.

So, in this sutta where the Buddha is referring to subsequently higher and higher attainments we get this very weird Nirodha of some senses but not others at the end.

So the Buddha has preached the highest attainment to be a weird Nirodha where sight, mental objects, and things heard come to their end but not taste, touch, or smell.

This peculiar Nirodha has never been declared by the Buddha which means that all of the above is an absurdity. So we throw that notion out.

So it must be something else. “Things explored by the mind”. This alludes to the five senses. Therefore, with a little investigation it appears he is speaking about nirodha samapatti.
The only time nirodha comes up is in relation to the contemplation that the cessation of craving is peaceful. For the previous it is said there is no manasi. Manasi is a way of talking about manasikāra. There is manasi occurring, and so manasikāra, within the meditation. Where there is manasikāra there is vedanā & sañña. What this text seems to be saying then is not the cessation of those things, but simply non-attention to them. What is being given attention instead, and so also perceived and felt, is the contemplation on nibbāna. I would guess that what is in mind here is the signless.
I’ve taken this reply into account. But first A better answer to your original question would be here.
Could it be, sir, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t be aware of the eye or sights, ear or sounds, nose or smells, tongue or tastes, or body or touches. They wouldn’t be aware of earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air.
So Ananda is saying - “look. These attainments are so deep. Even in the presence of sights, sounds, etc. earth, space, and so forth - there is no perception or feeling of those things. Is it possible given how deep these states are that one would still be aware (even at the apex of these attainments)?”

Ananda is not saying, “if a Bhikkhu ignores or doesn’t pay attention to (insert element or dimension here) then can he still be aware?”

The latter utterance is trivial. It is in the sense of the former utterance that this sutta has any meaning.

So, I respectfully reject your explanation.

:anjali:
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Re: Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm

Post by Spiny Norman »

Lucas Oliveira wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:56 pm Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm



:anjali:
For me stillness is a very powerful experience, as compared to the movement of the senses.
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Post by sunnat »

By ardently, again and again, returning to the object of meditation, the mind becomes focused, centered, collected, deepened, gathered, single, undiluted, undivided, and it is concentrated and there is stillness.
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Post by Pondera »

sunnat wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:25 am By ardently, again and again, returning to the object of meditation, the mind becomes focused, centered, collected, deepened, gathered, single, undiluted, undivided, and it is concentrated and there is stillness.
The prerequisite for rapture is joy. The prerequisite for tranquility is rapture. The prerequisite for pleasure is tranquility. The prerequisite for samadhi is pleasure. The prerequisite for knowledge and vision of things as they really are is samadhi - etc.
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Re: Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm

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From stillness/calm (passaddhi), heal (sukha) arises, from heal, samādhi (concentration) arise.... How ever, if lacking Saddha, lacking right view, what ever arises will be just a wrong of it. No need for an effort of intention when basic is gained.

The is no factor of pleasure or joy, once sammasamadi, samadhi as a path factor (that cuts through the net) is gained. Yet sukha requires the stilling of gross sankhara first, calm, stillness, passaddhi.

One commonly wouldn't like to surrender at first place to simply gain knowledge of liberation.
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Post by Dan74 »

sunnat wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:25 am By ardently, again and again, returning to the object of meditation, the mind becomes focused, centered, collected, deepened, gathered, single, undiluted, undivided, and it is concentrated and there is stillness.
Right. I was taught that concentration was the path to a collected still yet alert mind. I think this is in line with both Anapannasati and Satipattana Suttas, where breath awareness and other awareness regarding the senses, the feelings, formations, etc is taught. I know the methods like counting the breath or placing concentration on a spot are more modern, but perhaps a stepping stone to what the Buddha taught in the suttas.

I guess people have varying experiences with concentration. For some it is very hard and counter-productive, especially if unaccompanied by some sense of ease. I probably have mild ADHD and concentration has always been a challenge, but eventually there comes an easing of proliferation and the mind begins to just settle into a concentrated or probably better said, a collected state and from there, a stillness and an opening up seem to flow.

So concentration can be useful I think, but is not an end in itself.
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Re: Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm

Post by S. Johann »

At "least"... want should wrong stillness then be... that of a deluded Brahma relay on form? Not having left home, there does no samma-samadi arise, because the heal and stillness it relays on wouldn't be beyond that of a on-householder.
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Re: Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm

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Concentration (method) leads to stillness (result)?
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Re: Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm

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Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 12:20 pm Concentration (method) leads to stillness (result)?
Not really, as in regard of samma samadhi, good householder, but near the other way around: passaddhi (stillness) => sukkha (heal) => samadhi and samadhi => knowledge how things arise, decay => nibbida (disenchantment) => viraga => vimutti...

Yet focus on certain kammatthan, say breath, may help to still sankaras. Yet it's letting go here, surrender (saddha/adhi-sila), which cause pāmojja => pīti => passaddhi.
Same is found in the description of the Sambojjhaṅga.

"May the kaya-saṅkhāras end... breathing in, breathing out..." before Jhana can be reached.

Or if taking the nivaranas: restlessness & remorse do not arise if no wrong is traced by reflecting (sati, dhammavicaya) => (saddha/adhi-sila = right effort). Gained stillness causes Sukha, then Samadhi arise.
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