Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm
Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm
- Lucas Oliveira
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Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm
Last edited by bodom on Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Samadhi is Immobility, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm
Stillness might be a better choice of word.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
- Lucas Oliveira
- Posts: 1889
- Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:07 pm
Re: Samadhi is Immobility, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm
Correct... I will correct the topic title
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br
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Re: Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm
stillness is just one component of samadhi, not the entirety of it. Ajahn Brahm's redefinition of 'jhana' and 'samadhi' differ quite drastically from the suttas.
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/ ... index.html
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/ ... index.html
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org STED definitions
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www.audtip.org/audtip: Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
Re: Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm
- Maggavibhanga Suttanta"And what, monks, is right concentration? (i) There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. (ii) With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. (iii) With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' (iv) With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This, monks, is called right concentration."
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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- Posts: 1770
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Re: Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm
I think stillness as opposed to concentration is a good description of one of the components of jhana.
But keeping in mind how the venerable teaches... How is this 'stillness' experienced if there is no one there to experience it or at least there being a lack of awareness whilst in it.
Perhaps the after experience is being talked about... a bit like sex. All effort & energy and then the relief when it's over.
But keeping in mind how the venerable teaches... How is this 'stillness' experienced if there is no one there to experience it or at least there being a lack of awareness whilst in it.
Perhaps the after experience is being talked about... a bit like sex. All effort & energy and then the relief when it's over.
Re: Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm
There is awareness in it. If there weren't then it would be nirodha-samāpatti.BrokenBones wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:21 am I think stillness as opposed to concentration is a good description of one of the components of jhana.
But keeping in mind how the venerable teaches... How is this 'stillness' experienced if there is no one there to experience it or at least there being a lack of awareness whilst in it.
Perhaps the after experience is being talked about... a bit like sex. All effort & energy and then the relief when it's over.
No one there? Sounds like arguments Vedantists use.How is this 'stillness' experienced if there is no one there to experience it
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
-
- Posts: 1770
- Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:20 am
Re: Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm
Yes.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:38 amThere is awareness in it. If there weren't then it would be nirodha-samāpatti.BrokenBones wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:21 am I think stillness as opposed to concentration is a good description of one of the components of jhana.
But keeping in mind how the venerable teaches... How is this 'stillness' experienced if there is no one there to experience it or at least there being a lack of awareness whilst in it.
Perhaps the after experience is being talked about... a bit like sex. All effort & energy and then the relief when it's over.
No one there? Sounds like arguments Vedantists use.How is this 'stillness' experienced if there is no one there to experience it
Re: Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm
You follow Vedanta now?BrokenBones wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:05 amYes.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:38 amThere is awareness in it. If there weren't then it would be nirodha-samāpatti.BrokenBones wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:21 am I think stillness as opposed to concentration is a good description of one of the components of jhana.
But keeping in mind how the venerable teaches... How is this 'stillness' experienced if there is no one there to experience it or at least there being a lack of awareness whilst in it.
Perhaps the after experience is being talked about... a bit like sex. All effort & energy and then the relief when it's over.
No one there? Sounds like arguments Vedantists use.How is this 'stillness' experienced if there is no one there to experience it
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
Re: Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm
Nirodha Samapatti is the cessation of perception and feeling. Not the cessation of awareness.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:38 amThere is awareness in it. If there weren't then it would be nirodha-samāpatti.BrokenBones wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:21 am I think stillness as opposed to concentration is a good description of one of the components of jhana.
But keeping in mind how the venerable teaches... How is this 'stillness' experienced if there is no one there to experience it or at least there being a lack of awareness whilst in it.
Perhaps the after experience is being talked about... a bit like sex. All effort & energy and then the relief when it's over.
No one there? Sounds like arguments Vedantists use.How is this 'stillness' experienced if there is no one there to experience it
The suttas are very clear about this point. Please read AN 11.8
https://suttacentral.net/an11.8/en/suja ... ript=latin
“Could it be, sir, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t be aware of the eye or sights, ear or sounds, nose or smells, tongue or tastes, or body or touches. They wouldn’t be aware of earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t be aware of the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. They wouldn’t be aware of this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And they wouldn’t be aware of what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. Yet they would be aware?”
“It could be, Ānanda.”
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
Re: Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm
Where does that say it's nirodha-samāpatti?Pondera wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:08 am
Nirodha Samapatti is the cessation of perception and feeling. Not the cessation of awareness.
The suttas are very clear about this point. Please read AN 11.8
https://suttacentral.net/an11.8/en/suja ... ript=latin
“Could it be, sir, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t be aware of the eye or sights, ear or sounds, nose or smells, tongue or tastes, or body or touches. They wouldn’t be aware of earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t be aware of the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. They wouldn’t be aware of this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And they wouldn’t be aware of what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. Yet they would be aware?”
“It could be, Ānanda.”
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
Re: Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm
“And they wouldn’t be aware of what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind.”Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:12 amWhere does that say it's nirodha-samāpatti?Pondera wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:08 am
Nirodha Samapatti is the cessation of perception and feeling. Not the cessation of awareness.
The suttas are very clear about this point. Please read AN 11.8
https://suttacentral.net/an11.8/en/suja ... ript=latin
“Could it be, sir, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t be aware of the eye or sights, ear or sounds, nose or smells, tongue or tastes, or body or touches. They wouldn’t be aware of earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t be aware of the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. They wouldn’t be aware of this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And they wouldn’t be aware of what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. Yet they would be aware?”
“It could be, Ānanda.”
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
Re: Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm
Why does that mean it's nirodha-samāpatti?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
Re: Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm
See Culavedalla Suttanta
This is the description of "Nirodha samapatti"."Now, lady, how does the attainment of the cessation of perception & feeling come about?"
"The thought does not occur to a monk as he is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling that 'I am about to attain the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I am attaining the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I have attained the cessation of perception & feeling.' Instead, the way his mind has previously been developed leads him to that state."
"But when a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, which things cease first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"
"When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications."[1]
"Now, lady, how does emergence from the cessation of perception & feeling come about?"
"The thought does not occur to a monk as he is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling that 'I am about to emerge from the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I am emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I have emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling.' Instead, the way his mind has previously been developed leads him to that state."
"But when a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, which things arise first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"
"When a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, mental fabrications arise first, then bodily fabrications, then verbal fabrications."
"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, lady, how many contacts make contact?"
"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, three contacts make contact: contact with emptiness, contact with the signless, & contact with the undirected."
"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, lady, to what does his mind lean, to what does it tend, to what does it incline?"
"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, his mind leans to seclusion, tends to seclusion, inclines to seclusion."
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Re: Samadhi is Stillness, not Concentration - Ajahn Brahm
Well. We assume it isn’t.
Then we have Nirodha of sight and things heard and also objects of the mind but not necessarily things smelled tasted or touched.
So, in this sutta where the Buddha is referring to subsequently higher and higher attainments we get this very weird Nirodha of some senses but not others at the end.
So the Buddha has preached the highest attainment to be a weird Nirodha where sight, mental objects, and things heard come to their end but not taste, touch, or smell.
This peculiar Nirodha has never been declared by the Buddha which means that all of the above is an absurdity. So we throw that notion out.
So it must be something else. “Things explored by the mind”. This alludes to the five senses. Therefore, with a little investigation it appears he is speaking about nirodha samapatti.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded