Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

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Kumara
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by Kumara »

Goofaholix wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:47 pm
Kumara wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:34 am When the student wants to see that things are out of control, he will subconsciously try make things (incl the mind) that way. Then of course eventually that's what he will see. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
If you take view then a teacher should say nothing. If he talks about anicca then the student will see anicca as a self fulfilling prophecy, if anatta then they will see anatta.
But they don't make their minds out of control.
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

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Sam Vara wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:01 pm Possibly, but as noted above, a great deal depends on the context. If the lack of control is presented as some kind of general and universal philosophical truth, then students may indeed be induced to see everything in this light. (If they believe him, that is!)
Right.
On the other hand, if the lack of control is just pointed out as the way the mind is now, or tends to be, then this can form the basis for trying to establish some kind of mental control as a refuge - albeit even temporary - from dukkha. This is the way my teacher sometimes instructs me; without mindfulness, you are at the mercy of Mara or uncontrollable tendencies that the mind has. Now, let's try to establish a little bit of mindfulness as a means of gaining a tiny foothold of control, which we can then develop, and turn into something like mastery.
Yes, but I suppose anyone who has tried to sustain attention will notice on their own how unruly the mind can be. Then instead of being frustrated, they learn to cultivate the right conditions for the mind to be more settled or composed.
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

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Goofaholix wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:11 am
Kumara wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:34 am So, when a teacher says things like
  • "That’s why we’re practicing, to see that all things are impermanent and out of control."
  • "... we’ll see that the mind is just changing and out of control."
My wife is a Thai interpreter, among other things, and she has been listening to Ajahn Promote's talks a lot lately.

i asked her if she ever heard him say anything like "the mind is changing and out of control." she said no, but he does say things like "the mind is changing and scattered" quite a lot.

I don't know if this is the same phrase but if it is its presumably a translation error.
That gives a very different idea compared to "That’s why we’re practicing, to see that all things are impermanent and out of control."

I know a guy who has been going to Thailand for retreats with his follower, and he tells me, ”All you have to do is to see that everything is out of control."

To me, this is serious problem, probably reflected here: viewtopic.php?p=493865#p493865
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

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mikenz66 wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:20 am Hi Robert,
robertk wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:31 am The critical factor is wisdom, right view.
To the degree that that is developed there must be understanding of the nature of the elements, of the world: any resistance is like railing against nature, against gravity or the weather.
I like the way you express it here... If only we could control the weather... :tongue:

:heart:
Mike
Thanks. Thinking of anatta as nature, simply natural processes, might be a good way to introduce it. Sometimes it can sound a bit harsh when we say NO SELF.
But when it is seen as the natural order of things we see there is nothing odd or negative about it.
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

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robertk wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:10 pm Thinking of anatta as nature, simply natural processes, might be a good way to introduce it. Sometimes it can sound a bit harsh when we say NO SELF.
But when it is seen as the natural order of things we see there is nothing odd or negative about it.
That's how my teacher (U Tejaniya) prefers to call it too, just nature. Besides, "no self" isn't a good translation for anatta. Aj Thanissaro is right about translating it as not-self.
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

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Kumara wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:38 am
robertk wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:10 pm Thinking of anatta as nature, simply natural processes, might be a good way to introduce it. Sometimes it can sound a bit harsh when we say NO SELF.
But when it is seen as the natural order of things we see there is nothing odd or negative about it.
That's how my teacher (U Tejaniya) prefers to call it too, just nature. Besides, "no self" isn't a good translation for anatta. Aj Thanissaro is right about translating it as not-self.
Dear Venerable
I don't see the difference between no self and not-self. The point is there is no self at all, anywhere. As the visuddhimagga says
Visuddhimagga XIX19
“There is no doer of a deed, or one who reaps the result. Phenomena alone flow on, no other view than this right.
XVIII24
“This is mere mentality-materiality, there is no being, no person

XVII31
“The mental and material (nama rupa) are really here
But here is no human being to be found, for it is void and merely fashioned like a doll.
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"no self" and "not-self"

Post by Kumara »

robertk wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:51 am I don't see the difference between no self and not-self.
They are related no doubt, but not exactly the same.

"anatta" is an adjective, as in "Anattaṃ rūpaṃ", i.e. "Not-self is form." It's not "No self is form."

Btw, I just found that 'not-self' is the first translation/definition for anatta in Ven Nyanatiloka Mahathera's Buddhist Dictionary. So, Ajahn Thanissaro isn't the first after all.
The point is there is no self at all, anywhere. As the visuddhimagga says
Visuddhimagga XIX19
“There is no doer of a deed, or one who reaps the result. Phenomena alone flow on, no other view than this right.
XVIII24
“This is mere mentality-materiality, there is no being, no person

XVII31
“The mental and material (nama rupa) are really here
But here is no human being to be found, for it is void and merely fashioned like a doll.
And does it tie this with the word "anatta"?
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by S. Johann »

robertk wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:51 am
Kumara wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:38 am
robertk wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:10 pm Thinking of anatta as nature, simply natural processes, might be a good way to introduce it. Sometimes it can sound a bit harsh when we say NO SELF.
But when it is seen as the natural order of things we see there is nothing odd or negative about it.
That's how my teacher (U Tejaniya) prefers to call it too, just nature. Besides, "no self" isn't a good translation for anatta. Aj Thanissaro is right about translating it as not-self.
The point is there is no self at all, anywhere. As the visuddhimagga says
Visuddhimagga XIX19
“There is no doer of a deed, or one who reaps the result. Phenomena alone flow on, no other view than this right.
XVIII24
“This is mere mentality-materiality, there is no being, no person

XVII31
“The mental and material (nama rupa) are really here
But here is no human being to be found, for it is void and merely fashioned like a doll.
Well, most here might follow the Gems, headed by the Buddha, and good reason why he didn't told such extreme.

Yet it is the only reason why Bhante Good Son's critique whould be justified in ways of poorly explained Dhamma... if one remembers the simily the Buddha used in regard of 'no-self': even a stupid baby boy has no notion of Self. And further declared that teacher teaching so should be seen on the same level: foolish baby boys, if that is the case here.

If one otherwise has troubles with the perception 'out of control' that actually this is it's prove, given that one thinks he follows the Dhamma, as all 6 dhatus are likely of that quality.

Maybe it's useful for the Buddhaparisa here to remeber that what ever certain control needs, requires, paccaya, and good to use it wise for and end of steady out of controll. (btw. standard translation of anicca in Mon-Khmer languages "not in 'one's' control.).

The Abhidhammic-Zen-householder Dhamma has never been of much glory and will not, but keeps firm in households:

"The mental and material (nama rupa) are really here
But here is no human being to be found, for it is void and merely fashioned like a doll."
What an outstandig foolish advice! So: on what would one hold on now, if adviced the Aggregates are really here...

Out of mind is certain hard to get ever back under certain control, thatjs for sure, as ways of merits are blocked off.
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

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Jack19990101 wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:45 am I somehow heard Ajahn Pramote is an arhant.
He does promote the idea that he's enlightened.
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by S. Johann »

Kumara wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 1:52 am
Jack19990101 wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:45 am I somehow heard Ajahn Pramote is an arhant.
He does promote the idea that he's enlightened.
An Arahat does not teach householder meditation, so as well all who really arrived at the second stage, as it requires to let go for house and stand to gain some control over ones mind. How could one write books on meditation as addition to what the Buddha taught, if not thinking to be awakened, yet possible overestimate his gains, Bhante?
...His teachings are especially appealing to modern urban people, helping them to become successful mindfulness and insight practitioners despite their busy lifestyles....
Familar, maybe just envy of similar livelihood?
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