Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

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Kumara
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Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by Kumara »

I suppose many of you would have heard of Ajahn Pramote. What do you think of his teachings? For some time, it seems to me very similar to Sayadaw U Tejaniya's. Then I kept seeing this thing about being "out of control", e.g, "The mind and it’s mental and emotional states are all impermanent and out of control."

OK, impermanent is fine. No issue there. But the mind is "out of control" (though sometimes he connects it with non-self) sounds strange. If the mind is by nature out of control, how can we ever cultivate the mind?

What do you think?
sunnat
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by sunnat »

context ?
for the uninstructed wordling , yes it is ‘out of control’.

‘for the instructed noble disciple there is development of the mind’
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by Bundokji »

Control is a vantage point, or a dynamic between body and mind. A mind only model of reality might present "mind and mental states as out of control".

It seems false to me to consider a higher perspective necessarily more accurate, by virtue of it being higher.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by Sam Vara »

Kumara wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:03 am I suppose many of you would have heard of Ajahn Pramote. What do you think of his teachings? For some time, it seems to me very similar to Sayadaw U Tejaniya's. Then I kept seeing this thing about being "out of control", e.g, "The mind and it’s mental and emotional states are all impermanent and out of control."

OK, impermanent is fine. No issue there. But the mind is "out of control" (though sometimes he connects it with non-self) sounds strange. If the mind is by nature out of control, how can we ever cultivate the mind?

What do you think?
Interesting point. I don't know about the Ajahn, I'm afraid, but as you can see from Robert's link, it is something that I have thought about. Perhaps the meaning is revealed more by the context, along the lines of the mind being normally out of control, yet mindfulness or some other factor establishes a degree of control when it is present. Cultivation establishes the control, and that cultivation is so rare that it is the exception that proves the rule. Of course (as per the link the Robert provided) it might be that the cultivation itself is controlled, in the sense of being determined by whatever prior states bring it about, and those prior states are not within our control.

I would also have thought that if the mind and mental states are impermanent (with which you have no issue) then they are also necessarily out of control. If something cannot last, then it is to that extent out of our control should we wish to prolong it.
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

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Mahāsi Sayādaw: Dependent Origination wrote:Absence of Striving
The third aspect of Dependent Origination is the absence of striving (avyāpāra). Ignorance causes mental formations without striving, and mental formations do not strive to create rebirth. Knowledge of this fact means insight into the absence of any being or agent (kāraka-puggala) who sees, hears, etc., and as such it frees us from ego-belief. However, as the Visuddhi­magga says, the misinterpretation of this principle may turn one into a moral sceptic who accepts determinism and denies moral responsibility.

The non-volitional nature of phenomena is apparent to one who contemplates their ceaseless arising and dissolution, for one realises clearly that since they are conditioned, they do not act according to one’s wishes.
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by bodom »

Kumara wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:03 am I suppose many of you would have heard of Ajahn Pramote. What do you think of his teachings? For some time, it seems to me very similar to Sayadaw U Tejaniya's. Then I kept seeing this thing about being "out of control", e.g, "The mind and it’s mental and emotional states are all impermanent and out of control."

OK, impermanent is fine. No issue there. But the mind is "out of control" (though sometimes he connects it with non-self) sounds strange. If the mind is by nature out of control, how can we ever cultivate the mind?

What do you think?
Hi Kumara.

I've recently downloaded a couple of Ajahn Pramote's books and have enjoyed what I've read so far. He is very similar to Tejaniya and his emphasis on watching the mind.

It is true that the mind is "out of control " and that's what makes it impermanent and therefore not-self . The mind is not ours but we are responsible for it. As the Buddha says in the chapter on the mind in the Dhammapada:
The Mind

The restless, agitated mind,
Hard to protect, hard to control,
The sage makes straight,
As a fletcher the shaft of an arrow.

Like a fish out of water,
Thrown on dry ground,
This mind thrashes about,
Trying to escape Māra’s command.

The mind, hard to control,
Flighty—alighting where it wishes—
One does well to tame.
The disciplined mind brings happiness.

The mind, hard to see,
Subtle—alighting where it wishes—
The sage protects.
The watched mind brings happiness.

Far-ranging, solitary,
Incorporeal and hidden
Is the mind.
Those who restrain it
Will be freed from Māra’s bonds.
:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Kumara
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by Kumara »

bodom wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:30 pm It is true that the mind is "out of control " and that's what makes it impermanent and therefore not-self . The mind is not ours but we are responsible for it. As the Buddha says in the chapter on the mind in the Dhammapada:
The Mind

The restless, agitated mind,
Hard to protect, hard to control,
The sage makes straight,
As a fletcher the shaft of an arrow.
Quite different here. It's talking about the ”restless, agitated mind“ being "hard to control", not that the mind is by nature "out of control ".
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Kumara
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by Kumara »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:34 pm Interesting point. I don't know about the Ajahn, I'm afraid, but as you can see from Robert's link, it is something that I have thought about. Perhaps the meaning is revealed more by the context, along the lines of the mind being normally out of control, yet mindfulness or some other factor establishes a degree of control when it is present. Cultivation establishes the control, and that cultivation is so rare that it is the exception that proves the rule. Of course (as per the link the Robert provided) it might be that the cultivation itself is controlled, in the sense of being determined by whatever prior states bring it about, and those prior states are not within our control.

I would also have thought that if the mind and mental states are impermanent (with which you have no issue) then they are also necessarily out of control. If something cannot last, then it is to that extent out of our control should we wish to prolong it.
At the risk of sounding rude, do you think the ajahn would say that his mind is also out of control?
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by Kumara »

sunnat wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:57 am context ?
for the uninstructed wordling , yes it is ‘out of control’.

‘for the instructed noble disciple there is development of the mind’
I somehow can't find where I copied that from. But here's something broader: "That’s why we’re practicing, to see that all things are impermanent and out of control." (from "Waking up America")
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by Sam Vara »

Kumara wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:06 am
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:34 pm Interesting point. I don't know about the Ajahn, I'm afraid, but as you can see from Robert's link, it is something that I have thought about. Perhaps the meaning is revealed more by the context, along the lines of the mind being normally out of control, yet mindfulness or some other factor establishes a degree of control when it is present. Cultivation establishes the control, and that cultivation is so rare that it is the exception that proves the rule. Of course (as per the link the Robert provided) it might be that the cultivation itself is controlled, in the sense of being determined by whatever prior states bring it about, and those prior states are not within our control.

I would also have thought that if the mind and mental states are impermanent (with which you have no issue) then they are also necessarily out of control. If something cannot last, then it is to that extent out of our control should we wish to prolong it.
At the risk of sounding rude, do you think the ajahn would say that his mind is also out of control?
Yes, that's an excellent question. I think he can only be talking about the unguarded mind, and that what allows him to make the claim is the fact that he has established more control over it than other people. The antecedent circumstances to that control were themselves not controlled by him (i.e. they were a matter of good kamma or good luck as to where he was born, and the opportunity to hear the Dhamma, etc.) but his mind nevertheless follows his intentions (i.e. to be calm, to not have defilements) and is not hindered in this by external forces.

This is a compatibilist view of free will as applied to the Dhamma, and is the only way I can square this particular circle.
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

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Kumara wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:06 am
At the risk of sounding rude, do you think the ajahn would say that his mind is also out of control?
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
"Bhikkhus, consciousness is not self. Were consciousness self, then this consciousness would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of consciousness: 'Let my consciousness be thus, let my consciousness be not thus.' And since consciousness is not-self, so it leads to affliction, and none can have it of consciousness: 'Let my consciousness be thus, let my consciousness be not thus
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by Jack19990101 »

Kumara wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:06 am
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:34 pm Interesting point. I don't know about the Ajahn, I'm afraid, but as you can see from Robert's link, it is something that I have thought about. Perhaps the meaning is revealed more by the context, along the lines of the mind being normally out of control, yet mindfulness or some other factor establishes a degree of control when it is present. Cultivation establishes the control, and that cultivation is so rare that it is the exception that proves the rule. Of course (as per the link the Robert provided) it might be that the cultivation itself is controlled, in the sense of being determined by whatever prior states bring it about, and those prior states are not within our control.

I would also have thought that if the mind and mental states are impermanent (with which you have no issue) then they are also necessarily out of control. If something cannot last, then it is to that extent out of our control should we wish to prolong it.
At the risk of sounding rude, do you think the ajahn would say that his mind is also out of control?
I somehow heard Ajahn Pramote is an arhant. If he is an arahant, his mind is no longer moving. Control or not is non relevant.
As to out of control -
All aggregates are out of control, it is a flavor of anatta if you are in contemplation origin of an aggregate.
Or it could be a flavor of anicca if you contemplate the disbanding of an aggregate.
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by bodom »

Kumara wrote:Quite different here. It's talking about the ”restless, agitated mind“ being "hard to control", not that the mind is by nature "out of control ".
I don't see a difference. Until either concentration or awakening is attained the mind is almost constantly operating under the influence of greed, hatred, ignorance, papanca etc.

It would also be helpful to see the Ajahns quote in the context of which he made this statement.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by bodom »

Having searched through the Ajahns books this is what I came up with:
Can we notice there is no way that we can truly control the body? The body is aging regardless of what we do. The body can get sick regardless of what we do. The body will die regardless of what we do. We can’t command the body to not die. It’s out of control. Similarly, the emotions and the mental states are also out of control.
What they have done is they have clearly and absolutely, in their direct experience, seen the truth of body and mind: that they are impermanent, that they are suffering and that they are out of control.
We practice so that we can see the mind that gets lost in thought, see the mind that gets angry, see the mind that is greedy. All these things are impermanent. The mind changes from one to the other, to the other. That’s why we’re practicing, to see that all things are impermanent and out of control.
This is learning about oneself. This is about seeing clearly. We will see that life consists of mental and physical phenomena arising and falling. We’ll see that physicality is just composed of different elements and we’ll see that the mind is just changing and out of control. It is empty of a controller.
Emotions are totally out of control. These things arise in the mind at any time. Sometimes, we can just be sitting there by ourself and anger comes up. We don’t even need somebody else to stimulate it.
What happens when we study Buddhism is we bring our attention to our own body and to our own mind and we see the truth of them. We see the true Three Characteristics of the body and mind: that they are temporary and changing all the time, that they are suffering and that they are out of control. When we see the the truth that they are changing, suffering, and out of control, what happens is we start to release our attachment to the body and to the mind.
:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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