Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

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sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

‘If kamma was intention, then that "intention" too is the result of causes and conditions.‘ - pegembara

excellent, imo
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Kumara
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Re: kamma

Post by Kumara »

sunnat wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:27 am ‘If kamma was intention, then that "intention" too is the result of causes and conditions.‘ - pegembara

excellent, imo
So then the ’control‘ is in the causes and conditions.
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Kumara
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by Kumara »

I see that different people are trying to make sense of what the ajahn says in different ways. That suggests a problem.

I don't know about you all, but in my experience of meditation, my mind becomes less and less out of control.
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robertk
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by robertk »

Kumara wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:29 am I see that different people are trying to make sense of what the ajahn says in different ways. That suggests a problem.

I don't know about you all, but in my experience of meditation, my mind becomes less and less out of control.
Long before the Buddha wise ascetics could attain samatha and jhana- for sure they believed they had tamed the mind.

But the Buddha could see that it was all merely a flux of conditions and that even apparent taming could lead to even more delusion - an idea that they had control and that these states were lasting.

It is why the way of vipassana is about gradually seeing the real nature of elements - anicca, dukkha, and especially anatta. It is not about trying to change the mind to be more calm , it is to see that there is only a flux of conditioned phenomena - empty and not under anyone's mastery.
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by Kumara »

robertk wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:54 am It is why the way of vipassana is about gradually seeing the real nature of elements - anicca, dukkha, and especially anatta. It is not about trying to change the mind to be more calm , it is to see that there is only a flux of conditioned phenomena - empty and not under anyone's mastery.
However, seeing anicca, dukkha, and especially anatta, does still the mind. (I'm not speaking of trying to see those characteristics, but the actually seeing that distinctly.) And that's how I understand "samatha preceded by vipassana".
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robertk
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by robertk »

Kumara wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:59 am
robertk wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:54 am It is why the way of vipassana is about gradually seeing the real nature of elements - anicca, dukkha, and especially anatta. It is not about trying to change the mind to be more calm , it is to see that there is only a flux of conditioned phenomena - empty and not under anyone's mastery.
However, seeing anicca, dukkha, and especially anatta, does still the mind. (I'm not speaking of trying to see those characteristics, but the actually seeing that distinctly.) And that's how I understand "samatha preceded by vipassana".
Yes right. It seems a paradox but accepting and seeing the uncontrollabilty is calming. And it is a calm that is independent of external circumstances .
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by Sam Vara »

robertk wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:06 am
Kumara wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:59 am
robertk wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:54 am It is why the way of vipassana is about gradually seeing the real nature of elements - anicca, dukkha, and especially anatta. It is not about trying to change the mind to be more calm , it is to see that there is only a flux of conditioned phenomena - empty and not under anyone's mastery.
However, seeing anicca, dukkha, and especially anatta, does still the mind. (I'm not speaking of trying to see those characteristics, but the actually seeing that distinctly.) And that's how I understand "samatha preceded by vipassana".
Yes right. It seems a paradox but accepting and seeing the uncontrollabilty is calming. And it is a calm that is independent of external circumstances .
Just to keep the paradox in play, here... :stirthepot:

If it's all uncontrollable, then the acceptance can also change and be replaced by the most intense and painful resistance. And any calm that results would not be independent of those external circumstances, but dependent upon whatever produces the acceptance...
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robertk
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by robertk »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:16 am

Just to keep the paradox in play, here... :stirthepot:

If it's all uncontrollable, then the acceptance can also change and be replaced by the most intense and painful resistance. And any calm that results would not be independent of those external circumstances, but dependent upon whatever produces the acceptance...
The critical factor is wisdom, right view.
To the degree that that is developed there must be understanding of the nature of the elements, of the world: any resistance is like railing against nature, against gravity or the weather.

Of course, while one is still a worlding this understanding is rather uneven, and can deteriorate or be intermittant. As I see it.
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by Sam Vara »

robertk wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:31 am
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:16 am

Just to keep the paradox in play, here... :stirthepot:

If it's all uncontrollable, then the acceptance can also change and be replaced by the most intense and painful resistance. And any calm that results would not be independent of those external circumstances, but dependent upon whatever produces the acceptance...
The critical factor is wisdom, right view.
To the degree that that is developed there must be understanding of the nature of the elements, of the world: any resistance is like railing against nature, against gravity or the weather.

Of course, while one is still a worlding this understanding is rather uneven, and can deteriorate or be intermittant. As I see it.
Yes, I agree, but I think the paradox still remains, albeit seen from a different perspective. If wisdom/right view can be developed (as opposed to it just developing by its own accord, as an outside circumstance) then there is control. And if there is no control by us, then the wisdom'/right view can simply disappear because of changes in the uncontrollable conditions which govern its arising and ceasing.
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robertk
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by robertk »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:16 am


Yes, I agree, but I think the paradox still remains, albeit seen from a different perspective. If wisdom/right view can be developed (as opposed to it just developing by its own accord, as an outside circumstance) then there is control. And if there is no control by us, then the wisdom'/right view can simply disappear because of changes in the uncontrollable conditions which govern its arising and ceasing
Wisdom can develop, however it is conditioned and anatta.
Look at it this way. Did you control becoming interested in Dhamma or even being in a situation where you could hear it in the first place. Some never hear it. Some people hear it, and are not interested; others hear it, get interested and completely misunderstand it.

Especially when 'situations' are broken down into moments, into the different jatis, then it must be clear ( as I see it) that not even one moment was manufactured. Each arises by conditions.
It is why Abhidhamma is needed, especially in the beginning, as an antidote to the idea of a self who can make elements ( like sati foŕ instance) arise.
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by Sam Vara »

robertk wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:37 am
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:16 am


Yes, I agree, but I think the paradox still remains, albeit seen from a different perspective. If wisdom/right view can be developed (as opposed to it just developing by its own accord, as an outside circumstance) then there is control. And if there is no control by us, then the wisdom'/right view can simply disappear because of changes in the uncontrollable conditions which govern its arising and ceasing
Wisdom can develop, however it is conditioned and anatta.
Look at it this way. Did you control becoming interested in Dhamma or even being in a situation where you could hear it in the first place. Some never hear it. Some people hear it, and are not interested; others hear it, get interested and completely misunderstand it.

Especially when 'situations' are broken down into moments, into the different jatis, then it must be clear ( as I see it) that not even one moment was manufactured. Each arises by conditions.
It is why Abhidhamma is needed, especially in the beginning, as an antidote to the idea of a self who can make elements ( like sati foŕ instance) arise.
Yes, this leans heavily towards determinism. I had, indeed, no control at all over hearing the Dhamma, or whether I am able to understand it. Which means that any wisdom which might develop for me can be taken away by means of the same processes.
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by robertk »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:52 pm
Yes, this leans heavily towards determinism. I had, indeed, no control at all over hearing the Dhamma, or whether I am able to understand it. Which means that any wisdom which might develop for me can be taken away by means of the same processes.

When we hear about anatta and no control this might seem worrying - "oh god I can't do anything, who knows where I might end up". One could turn away from hearing more about anatta.

Or it feels rather calming - no self to be so concerned with , there are only fleeting elements, why be concerned with a feeling that has already passed away.
I think knowing that this teaching of the Buddha - see anatta lakkhana sutta, is important can be a condition for more interest and saddha and viriya, the factors that support wisdom , so that it can grow.
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by Sam Vara »

robertk wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:24 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:52 pm
Yes, this leans heavily towards determinism. I had, indeed, no control at all over hearing the Dhamma, or whether I am able to understand it. Which means that any wisdom which might develop for me can be taken away by means of the same processes.

When we hear about anatta and no control this might seem worrying - "oh god I can't do anything, who knows where I might end up". One could turn away from hearing more about anatta.

Or it feels rather calming - no self to be so concerned with , there are only fleeting elements, why be concerned with a feeling that has already passed away.
I think knowing that this teaching of the Buddha - see anatta lakkhana sutta, is important can be a condition for more interest and saddha and viriya, the factors that support wisdom , so that it can grow.
Yes, I agree. The problem is, though, that there never was any control at the personal level, and often this was accompanied by enormous distress. If there is no control, then even the knowledge that "there is no control" can pass away, and one can become - again - rigidly obsessed with attempting to control things.
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

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Kumara wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:03 am OK, impermanent is fine. No issue there. But the mind is "out of control" (though sometimes he connects it with non-self) sounds strange. If the mind is by nature out of control, how can we ever cultivate the mind?

What do you think?
I think that if the observer regards him/herself to be something else than the observed, he/her creates a distance between the two and therefore conflicts. If he/herself is included in the chaos, the chaos is order, and the mind is freed of ignorance about "chaos".
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
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robertk
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by robertk »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:52 pm, I agree. The problem is, though, that there never was any control at the personal level, and often this was accompanied by enormous distress. If there is no control, then even the knowledge that "there is no control" can pass away, and one can become - again - rigidly obsessed with attempting to control things
Yes, true. Although I think it should be that moments of reflecting on/seeing anatta have an increasing impact on view.
So when we do feel distress it can be a reminder that there is either a forgetting of the heart of the teaching, or some distortion of view. So it gives a little kick to orient view, or at least to be patient with what is arising now - after all the nature of the world is dukkha as well as anatta.
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