Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

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Sam Vara
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by Sam Vara »

robertk wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:17 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:52 pm, I agree. The problem is, though, that there never was any control at the personal level, and often this was accompanied by enormous distress. If there is no control, then even the knowledge that "there is no control" can pass away, and one can become - again - rigidly obsessed with attempting to control things
Yes, true. Although I think it should be that moments of reflecting on/seeing anatta have an increasing impact on view.
So when we do feel distress it can be a reminder that there is either a forgetting of the heart of the teaching, or some distortion of view. So it gives a little kick to orient view, or at least to be patient with what is arising now - after all the nature of the world is dukkha as well as anatta.
Yes, this is as close as I can get to squaring this particular circle, and so - as ever - I'm grateful for your insights on this one. :anjali: :heart:
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by Kumara »

When we say something is not within our control, is it the same as saying it's out of control?
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

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Kumara wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:02 am When we say something is not within our control, is it the same as saying it's out of control?
From Bhikkhu Analayo's Satipatthana Meditation guide:
With this type of attitude we learn to practise mindfulness of the body with wisdom, knowing very well that it would not be skilful to get tense with the idea: “I must be mindful of the body without any interruption whatsoever.” This could in fact be a reflection of the mistaken belief that we are in full control. From the viewpoint of early Buddhist thought, a key factor in whatever we do is volition or intention. But our volition operates within a wider network of causes and conditions. It can influence things, but it cannot control them completely.

Applied to the experience of distraction, our responsibility is to set up the intention to be mindful and return to that intention whenever we notice that mindfulness has been lost. With that much we have fulfilled our task. If nevertheless the mind is totally distracted, then that is because of other causes and conditions impacting on the present situation. We are simply not in full control within our own mind. On realizing this, we come to appreciate that the best goal to set ourselves is a harmonious balance between our effort to live in the present moment and the natural resistance to that from the tendencies in our mind and from outer circumstances. Instead of the unreasonable expectation that all such resistance should be annihilated once and for all in order for us to qualify as a “good meditator”, we inhabit that harmonious balance, where recognition of the manifestation of any resistance is met with the smiling effort that is just sufficient for gently coming back home to the here and now. In this way, instead of turning the cultivation of mindfulness into a stressful and demanding chore, we see sati as a good friend to whom we return, with whom we like to spend as much of our time as possible.
:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

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Kumara wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:02 am When we say something is not within our control, is it the same as saying it's out of control?
No, the former says we don't control it, the latter says nobody controls it.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by Kumara »

Goofaholix wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:09 pm As I said, all beginning mediators report as one of their first realizations that they can't control the thinking mind ie it is out of control. Of course we can't control everything going on around us either and will suffer if we try. The wording might be a bit strong but I'm surprised you find it controversial.
To me it's very important. In my years of practicing and teaching meditation, I find it crucial to use the right words, because we learn and think through those words. When a student meditates with a wrong idea, the result can be disastrous.
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

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Goofaholix wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:26 am
Kumara wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:02 am When we say something is not within our control, is it the same as saying it's out of control?
No, the former says we don't control it, the latter says nobody controls it.
Not in normal English.
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by Jack19990101 »

Sati -
Know a busy mind as busy mind, know a calm mind as calm mind.
Renounce/let go -
Know a busy mind not my fault, know a calm mind not my credit.

If you suspect a calm mind might accredit to you or your cultivation, that is upadana. It has made a natural event personal.
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by robertk »

Jack19990101 wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:33 am Sati -
Know a busy mind as busy mind, know a calm mind as calm mind.
Renounce/let go -
Know a busy mind not my fault, know a calm mind not my credit.

If you suspect a calm mind might accredit to you or your cultivation, that is upadana. It has made a natural event personal.
:thumbsup: :sage:
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by Sam Vara »

Kumara wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:29 am
Goofaholix wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:26 am
Kumara wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:02 am When we say something is not within our control, is it the same as saying it's out of control?
No, the former says we don't control it, the latter says nobody controls it.
Not in normal English.
Goofaholix looks like he is using normal English there. to say that something is "out of control" is different from saying that it is not within our control. For example, my neighbours car is not within my my control, but it is not out of control. There is an important distinction there.
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

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Sam Vara wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:30 am [...] to say that something is "out of control" is different from saying that it is not within our control. For example, my neighbours car is not within my my control, but it is not out of control. There is an important distinction there.
Thank you.

So, when a teacher says things like
  • "That’s why we’re practicing, to see that all things are impermanent and out of control."
  • "... we’ll see that the mind is just changing and out of control."
he does condition the student to try to see things that way.

When the student wants to see that things are out of control, he will subconsciously try make things (incl the mind) that way. Then of course eventually that's what he will see. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Robert,
robertk wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:31 am The critical factor is wisdom, right view.
To the degree that that is developed there must be understanding of the nature of the elements, of the world: any resistance is like railing against nature, against gravity or the weather.
I like the way you express it here... If only we could control the weather... :tongue:

:heart:
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

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Kumara wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:34 am When the student wants to see that things are out of control, he will subconsciously try make things (incl the mind) that way. Then of course eventually that's what he will see. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
If you take view then a teacher should say nothing. If he talks about anicca then the student will see anicca as a self fulfilling prophecy, if anatta then they will see anatta.

As i say most beginners note the mind is out of control when they first start trying to meditate, this comes s a surprise as they expect meditation will calm the mind and nobody warns them that meditation shines the light on what the mind is really like.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

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Kumara wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:34 am
Sam Vara wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:30 am [...] to say that something is "out of control" is different from saying that it is not within our control. For example, my neighbours car is not within my my control, but it is not out of control. There is an important distinction there.
Thank you.

So, when a teacher says things like
  • "That’s why we’re practicing, to see that all things are impermanent and out of control."
  • "... we’ll see that the mind is just changing and out of control."
he does condition the student to try to see things that way.

When the student wants to see that things are out of control, he will subconsciously try make things (incl the mind) that way. Then of course eventually that's what he will see. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Possibly, but as noted above, a great deal depends on the context. If the lack of control is presented as some kind of general and universal philosophical truth, then students may indeed be induced to see everything in this light. (If they believe him, that is!) On the other hand, if the lack of control is just pointed out as the way the mind is now, or tends to be, then this can form the basis for trying to establish some kind of mental control as a refuge - albeit even temporary - from dukkha. This is the way my teacher sometimes instructs me; without mindfulness, you are at the mercy of Mara or uncontrollable tendencies that the mind has. Now, let's try to establish a little bit of mindfulness as a means of gaining a tiny foothold of control, which we can then develop, and turn into something like mastery.
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by Goofaholix »

Kumara wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:34 am So, when a teacher says things like
  • "That’s why we’re practicing, to see that all things are impermanent and out of control."
  • "... we’ll see that the mind is just changing and out of control."
My wife is a Thai interpreter, among other things, and she has been listening to Ajahn Promote's talks a lot lately.

i asked her if she ever heard him say anything like "the mind is changing and out of control." she said no, but he does say things like "the mind is changing and scattered" quite a lot.

I don't know if this is the same phrase but if it is its presumably a translation error.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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