Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

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Kumara
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by Kumara »

Sam Vara wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:35 am
Kumara wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:06 am
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:34 pm I would also have thought that if the mind and mental states are impermanent (with which you have no issue) then they are also necessarily out of control. If something cannot last, then it is to that extent out of our control should we wish to prolong it.
At the risk of sounding rude, do you think the ajahn would say that his mind is also out of control?
Yes, that's an excellent question. I think he can only be talking about the unguarded mind, and that what allows him to make the claim is the fact that he has established more control over it than other people. The antecedent circumstances to that control were themselves not controlled by him (i.e. they were a matter of good kamma or good luck as to where he was born, and the opportunity to hear the Dhamma, etc.) but his mind nevertheless follows his intentions (i.e. to be calm, to not have defilements) and is not hindered in this by external forces.
That doesn't tally with what he's saying though:
"That’s why we’re practicing, to see that all things are impermanent and out of control."
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Kumara
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by Kumara »

OK. Perhaps we need to establish what "out of control" means in English. Here are a few from various dictionaries:
  • no longer possible to manage.
  • No longer under management, direction, or regulation; unmanageable or unruly.
  • behaving unreasonably
  • acting without responding to manual direction or input
  • reckless or wild; to be in an unruly or unmanageable state or manner.
How does it go with statements like these?
"... we’ll see that the mind is just ... out of control."
"That’s why we’re practicing, to see that all things are impermanent and out of control."
(from "Waking Up America")
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Post by sunnat »

One of the very first things one discovers when starting meditating for example with training to maintain awareness of the in and out breathing is how much the mind is like a monkey swinging from branch to branch or like a fish out of water flopping this way and that.

This is the mind the uninstructed wordling carries, while believing it IS under control, not knowing that all remembering, pondering, ideation, imagining are sankharas rising and passing depending on conditions. Sabbe Sankhara Anicca. It is anicca and not controlled and so not self. The uninstructed life is an endless task of trying to control this out of control not self mind and so an endless source of misery because it cannot be controlled.

The instructed noble deciples training is to restrain this monkey mind. To rein it in. To bring it to stillness by no longer feeding it. Basically, non-judgementally, watch it starve so in the end it consumes itself and dies.
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by Sam Vara »

Kumara wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:28 am
Sam Vara wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:35 am
Kumara wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:06 am

At the risk of sounding rude, do you think the ajahn would say that his mind is also out of control?
Yes, that's an excellent question. I think he can only be talking about the unguarded mind, and that what allows him to make the claim is the fact that he has established more control over it than other people. The antecedent circumstances to that control were themselves not controlled by him (i.e. they were a matter of good kamma or good luck as to where he was born, and the opportunity to hear the Dhamma, etc.) but his mind nevertheless follows his intentions (i.e. to be calm, to not have defilements) and is not hindered in this by external forces.
That doesn't tally with what he's saying though:
"That’s why we’re practicing, to see that all things are impermanent and out of control."
Sorry, I can't see your point here. The Ajahn appears to be saying that we practice in order to see that our minds are out of control; or that everything is out of control. Could you state precisely why that statement is problematic?
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by nirodh27 »

Kumara wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:44 am ...
Hi Kumara,
Luangpor: Yes. Sometimes we see the defilements are one thing and the mind is another,
disconnected from each other. The defilements don’t come out of thin air. There is contact
with a sense object, then thinking, and anger comes afterward. The anger comes from a cause.
We are not to prevent this. We just see the defilements come and go, without judging them.
Can you see these things aren’t under control?

Student 6: Yes, I see that.

Luangpor: You see non-self clearly. See this non-self, out of control quality often.
I think this shed light. Out of control is equated to Anatta. In a sense, it reminds me (it seems the same argument actually, probably one influenced the other) Sam Harris's book "Waking up" that have a similar undestanding of non-self that is linked to his argument of the lack of free-will.
What are you, really? Who is the “I” that you speak of? Most of us will assume that “I,” as in their sense of self, is a single entity that exists in the brain and which they identify with, which observes through the eyes and that is the originator of our thoughts.

However, this is simply not the case.

Firstly, we aren’t even the thinkers of our thoughts, and our sense of control over them is totally illusory.

Try this exercise: make yourself comfortable and try not to think any thoughts for an entire minute.

How did you fare? Of course, you couldn’t do it. You might have had thought-free moments between thoughts, but some thoughts nevertheless came to your mind. Indeed, we have little control over our thoughts. They simply appear in our minds uninvited.

Next, even the idea of the self as a single entity is an illusion. Indeed, the creator of our “selves,” the brain, is in fact composed of different hemispheres, the right and the left, each with its own personality.

But how can we know this? Doctors sometimes perform a medical procedure known as callosotomy, which splits the hemispheres in the brain. Interestingly, people who have undergone this surgery demonstrate widely different traits depending on which side of the brain is stimulated.

One famous example of this is from a study on a young split-brain patient who was asked what he wanted to become when he grew up. His left hemisphere replied, “a draftsman,” while his right side had replied, “a racing driver.”

Clearly, we overestimate our control over our thoughts, and as a result we lend them greater power than they deserve. But what can we do to overcome their power and gain perspective?
In fact, if you observe, thoughts and intentions just pop in your mind before you are aware of it and you "acquire" them as your own. When you intend to drink something, you discover your intention and you acquire that intention as yours after the intention itself that by himself have no quality of "mineness", it is just like a running narrative that happens after the facts. "I want to drink". That "I" is a construction of the mind and that intention is not "your" intention without the acquisition, it is just something that happened in your experience, you couldn't will it differently. I think this have a great role in understanding "anatta", you have to acknowledge this to do the next step, get dispassion from consciousness, intentions and constructions. Else, you are imagining a "you" in yourself that is constant for an x amount of time and wills things, but the Anattalakkhana sutta is clear that you cannot say "intentions be like this" or "that".

Of course, that doesn't mean that we don't have to judge or develop, I think that the Buddha's teaching are agnostic/disinstered about the free will concept that is a western phisolophical problem. Can "we" observe and reason about our intentions? Yes, it is our built-in nature, so we can practice the Dhamma. I think that the Dhamma is about discrimination of skillfull and unskillful, so this kind of non-judgmemental attitude that is the crux of the Vipassana movement is not in-line with the suttas, that (as we see clearly in MN19-MN20) is all about judging thoughts and intentions and reason about their skillfulness and impact on our future well-being, just like in the parable of the cook of the SN.

That we are not the actual makers of our next thought or intention or impetus of anger doesn't mean that this judgemental ability is not present in us as well and will do his job.

This non-judgement attitude have a sense because, especially in the west, we tend to exercise control on our mental states judging US as bad, not able, unworthy and that causes Dukkha and stress. But the Buddha doesn't want that, it wants that we reason about our well-being and judge our intentions and thoughts in that light so that the mind naturally develops and incline towards peace. This is easily missed in the non-judgemental attitude.

Thanissaro have anatta as a value-judgement. I think that is the correct kind of attitude. Still, is important to note that there's no actual "me" that brings about anger so not to get caught in thoughts about existence of something that is D.O., but we still have to judge that anger based on the well-being and skillfullness of the anger and the mind will incline towards the non-arising. That I think is what the Buddha said and I think that it is a little lost in many form of Vipassana.

Of course, a debate about the role of Kamma and undestanding of it in Suttas and in Theravada here opens up, if we buy that intentions are not made by a "me" in any real sense, but from conditions that are not in our control (and that includes the intentions to practice the Dhamma) we are not really responsible for our actions, even if as beings we will certainly experience the results of them.
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by Maarten »

This is the correct understanding of Anatta as far as I understand it.
The Buddha explains it in the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta:
"Bhikkhus, form is not-self. Were form self, then this form would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.' And since form is not-self, so it leads to affliction, and none can have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.'

"Bhikkhus, feeling is not-self...

"Bhikkhus, perception is not-self...

"Bhikkhus, determinations are not-self...

"Bhikkhus, consciousness is not self. Were consciousness self, then this consciousness would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of consciousness: 'Let my consciousness be thus, let my consciousness be not thus.' And since consciousness is not-self, so it leads to affliction, and none can have it of consciousness: 'Let my consciousness be thus, let my consciousness be not thus.'
'Suppose there were a beetle, a dung-eater, full of dung, gorged with dung, with a huge pile of dung in front of him. He, because of that, would look down on other beetles: 'Yes, sirree! I am a dung-eater, full of dung, gorged with dung, with a huge pile of dung in front of me!' - SN 17.5
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Kumara
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by Kumara »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:42 am Sorry, I can't see your point here. The Ajahn appears to be saying that we practice in order to see that our minds are out of control; or that everything is out of control. Could you state precisely why that statement is problematic?
If your mind is out of control anyhow, how in the world would you ever be able to practice?
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Post by sunnat »

kamma
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Re:

Post by pegembara »

sunnat wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:32 am One of the very first things one discovers when starting meditating for example with training to maintain awareness of the in and out breathing is how much the mind is like a monkey swinging from branch to branch or like a fish out of water flopping this way and that.

This is the mind the uninstructed wordling carries, while believing it IS under control, not knowing that all remembering, pondering, ideation, imagining are sankharas rising and passing depending on conditions. Sabbe Sankhara Anicca. It is anicca and not controlled and so not self. The uninstructed life is an endless task of trying to control this out of control not self mind and so an endless source of misery because it cannot be controlled.

The instructed noble deciples training is to restrain this monkey mind. To rein it in. To bring it to stillness by no longer feeding it. Basically, non-judgementally, watch it starve so in the end it consumes itself and dies.
Initially, it appears out of control. As practice progresses, it appears to be sort of under control.
Eventually, there is the realization that it is not really under control but rather the appearance of "control" are actually the result of causes and conditions. No one is actually in charge.

If kamma was intention, then that "intention" too is the result of causes and conditions.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by Goofaholix »

Kumara wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:17 am If your mind is out of control anyhow, how in the world would you ever be able to practice?
By bringing it back under control, surely.

For most beginning mediators the first thing they learn is the mind seems out of control.
Last edited by Goofaholix on Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by Goofaholix »

Kumara wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:44 am OK. Perhaps we need to establish what "out of control" means in English. Here are a few from various dictionaries:
A better approach would be to look at the original Thai. The phrase out of control is a little strong, perhaps the original Thai doesn't have the same inference the english does. I recall Ajahn Chah using a similar phrase but I can't find it.

if you have the originbl thai text where the phrase is used please post it.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Kumara
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by Kumara »

Goofaholix wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:40 am
Kumara wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:17 am If your mind is out of control anyhow, how in the world would you ever be able to practice?
By bringing it back under control, surely.

For most beginning mediators the first thing they learn is the mind seems out of control.
When you've brought the mind under control, then how can you see it as out of control?

Bear in mind that it says "That’s why we’re practicing, to see that all things are impermanent and out of control." (from "Waking Up America"). You can google it.
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by Goofaholix »

Kumara wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:22 am When you've brought the mind under control, then how can you see it as out of control?
By observing it's nature, it's tendency to slip back out of control again if you stop practising, get lazy, or let down your guard.

As I said, all beginning mediators report as one of their first realizations that they can't control the thinking mind ie it is out of control. Of course we can't control everything going on around us either and will suffer if we try. The wording might be a bit strong but I'm surprised you find it controversial.

His point is simply (from his book);
The body and the mind are comprised of things that
we’re incapable of controlling.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by Dhammanando »

I don't think there's anything distinctive or unusual in what the ajahn is quoted as saying in this thread.

Any Thai teacher giving an exposition of anatta that's informed by the commentarial understanding will frequently use the phrase mai pen pai nai amnaat (ไม่เป็นไปในอำนาจ), which is the Thai translation of the Visuddhimagga term avasavattana.

Example:

‘‘Yaṃ dukkhaṃ tadanattā’’ti pana vacanato tadeva khandhapañcakaṃ anattā. Kasmā? Avasavattanato, avasavattanākāro anattalakkhaṇaṃ.

Those same five aggregates (which are impermanent and suffering) are not-self because of the (sutta) phrase 'What is suffering is not self.' Why? Because there is no exercising mastery over them. The mode of insusceptibility to the exercise of mastery is the characteristic of not-self.

(Visuddhimagga Ch. XXI)
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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Re: Ajahn Pramote & "out of control"

Post by zerotime »

Kumara wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:17 am If your mind is out of control anyhow, how in the world would you ever be able to practice?
we manifest kamma all the time. At least I understand the "out of control" doesn't mean that we cannot apply control, contemption, and etc.

It means that when we apply control, this Will arise because something. Or in another way, we can do what we want, although we cannot want other thing of what we want.

This situation out-of-control means the self don't have any power; this is an space to realize anatta and delusion of self.

One can think about this, if he wants :popcorn:
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