Understanding Maraṇasati

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Bundokji
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Understanding Maraṇasati

Post by Bundokji »

Friends,

Why did the Buddha encouraged the contemplation of death, but not the contemplation of rebirth?

In conditioned phenomena, things are divided into rising and falling. Is one more relevant to anicca than the other?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
santa100
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Re: Understanding Maraṇasati

Post by santa100 »

Bundokji wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:46 pm Friends,

Why did the Buddha encouraged the contemplation of death, but not the contemplation of rebirth?

In conditioned phenomena, things are divided into rising and falling. Is one more relevant to anicca than the other?
From a practice standpoint, there're 9 gory details unique to Death contemplation which is necessary for the development of Samvega and Nekkhamma. While Rebirth might have its own gory details, the level of graphic details simply don't come even close:
MN 119 wrote:1. A corpse that is "swollen, blue and festering."
2. A corpse that is "being eaten by crows, hawks, vultures, dogs, jackals or by different kinds of worms."
3. A corpse that is "reduced to a skeleton together with (some) flesh and blood held in by the tendons."
4. A corpse that is "reduced to a blood-besmeared skeleton without flesh but held in by the tendons."
5. A corpse that is "reduced to a skeleton held in by the tendons but without flesh and not besmeared with blood."
6. A corpse that is "reduced to bones gone loose, scattered in all directions."
7. A corpse that is "reduced to bones, white in color like a conch."
8. A corpse that is "reduced to bones more than a year old, heaped together."
9. A corpse that is "reduced to bones gone rotten and become dust."
befriend
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Re: Understanding Maraṇasati

Post by befriend »

He did in this sutta, I interpret it as monks thinking their may be safety in a deva realm but he tells them most devas fall to hell after death like most humans fall to hell after death so their works is to find cessation of stress. https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Understanding Maraṇasati

Post by Sam Vara »

There seem to be a number of different ways in which we are encouraged to be mindful of death. There is the graphic stuff mentioned above by santa100, and there is also contemplation of the more abstract idea that one will simply cease to be.
And for the sake of what benefit should a woman or a man, a householder or one gone forth, often reflect thus: ‘I am subject to death; I am not exempt from death’? During their lives beings are intoxicated with life, and when they are intoxicated with life they engage in misconduct by body, speech, and mind. But when one often reflects upon this theme, the intoxication with life is either completely abandoned or diminished. It is for the sake of this benefit that a woman or a man, a householder or one gone forth, should often reflect thus: ‘I am subject to death; I am not exempt from death.
https://suttacentral.net/an5.57/en/bodhi

Here, the term maraṇadhammomhi seems quite powerful; "I am of a death-nature". Right from the outset, having taken birth, there is this inevitability that is plain for us to see if only we bring ourselves to look. Rebirth might unthinkingly be accepted, or consciously taken as an article of faith, but we cannot say that this is self-evidently our nature.
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mjaviem
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Re: Understanding Maraṇasati

Post by mjaviem »

OP should not confuse mindfulness of death with perception of death. Two different things.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
pegembara
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Re: Understanding Maraṇasati

Post by pegembara »

When this was said, the Blessed One addressed the monks. "Whoever develops mindfulness of death, thinking, 'O, that I might live for a day & night... for a day... for the interval that it takes to eat a meal... for the interval that it takes to swallow having chewed up four morsels of food, that I might attend to the Blessed One's instructions. I would have accomplished a great deal' — they are said to dwell heedlessly. They develop mindfulness of death slowly for the sake of ending the effluents.

"But whoever develops mindfulness of death, thinking, 'O, that I might live for the interval that it takes to swallow having chewed up one morsel of food... for the interval that it takes to breathe out after breathing in, or to breathe in after breathing out, that I might attend to the Blessed One's instructions. I would have accomplished a great deal' — they are said to dwell heedfully. They develop mindfulness of death acutely for the sake of ending the effluents.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
What could be better than the acute realisation of anicca? That the next breath might be your last one.
That all sankharas are impermanent, unsatisfactory and without self.
All phenomena - sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touch, thoughts(including of self), perceptions, and feelings going, going, gone.
Cessation.

It is understanding what "true death/eternal rest" means.

"This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Nibbana."
"Then, householder, you should train yourself in this way: 'I won't cling to this world; my consciousness will not be dependent on this world... I won't cling to the world beyond; my consciousness will not be dependent on the world beyond.' That's how you should train yourself.

"Then, householder, you should train yourself in this way: 'I won't cling to what is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect; my consciousness will not be dependent on that.' That's how you should train yourself."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Thoughts or contemplation of rebirth has the complete opposite effect. Non cessation.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
Bundokji
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Re: Understanding Maraṇasati

Post by Bundokji »

mjaviem wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:58 pm OP should not confuse mindfulness of death with perception of death. Two different things.
Could you explain the difference?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Bundokji
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Re: Understanding Maraṇasati

Post by Bundokji »

pegembara wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:02 am Thoughts or contemplation of rebirth has the complete opposite effect. Non cessation.
The declaration of awakening begins with reference to birth as ended or destroyed. While Nibbana is often referred to as the deathless state, i do not see why it is less accurate to call it the rebirthless state.

Also death contemplation is not unique to Buddhism, but ending birth is. Ending birth is obviously not death. As such, the task of the holy life is to end rebirth, not to end death.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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mjaviem
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Re: Understanding Maraṇasati

Post by mjaviem »

Bundokji wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:35 am
mjaviem wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:58 pm OP should not confuse mindfulness of death with perception of death. Two different things.
Could you explain the difference?
This is my understanding of the difference:
mjaviem wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:44 am ... to develop mindfulness of death (maraṇassati) is more about wishing to practise without delay while there's still time. Developing the perception of death (maraṇasaññā) is more about getting disenchanted with life. Both have in common that death is in mind and both eventually lead to the same result but don't seem to be the same.

Perception of death seems to be more about wisdom and seeing life properly. Mindfulness of death seems to be more about desiring to practise and remembering one can die. You remember you could die and at the same time you want and remember to practise. This is not the same as to see with wisdom that there is death and that life won't give us our highest aspirations. That you want to practise carefully and hastily because you are mindful of death is not the same as you are disappointed because you have perceived death and don't want to cling anymore, enough of all this for you because of this perception.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Bundokji
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Re: Understanding Maraṇasati

Post by Bundokji »

mjaviem wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:30 am
Bundokji wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:35 am
mjaviem wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:58 pm OP should not confuse mindfulness of death with perception of death. Two different things.
Could you explain the difference?
This is my understanding of the difference:
mjaviem wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:44 am ... to develop mindfulness of death (maraṇassati) is more about wishing to practise without delay while there's still time. Developing the perception of death (maraṇasaññā) is more about getting disenchanted with life. Both have in common that death is in mind and both eventually lead to the same result but don't seem to be the same.

Perception of death seems to be more about wisdom and seeing life properly. Mindfulness of death seems to be more about desiring to practise and remembering one can die. You remember you could die and at the same time you want and remember to practise. This is not the same as to see with wisdom that there is death and that life won't give us our highest aspirations. That you want to practise carefully and hastily because you are mindful of death is not the same as you are disappointed because you have perceived death and don't want to cling anymore, enough of all this for you because of this perception.
Thank you :anjali:

I admit that i have encountered maraṇasaññā before, or maybe i do not remember. Do you know of any suttas where the term has been used?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
SarathW
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Re: Understanding Maraṇasati

Post by SarathW »

santa100 wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:31 pm
Bundokji wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:46 pm Friends,

Why did the Buddha encouraged the contemplation of death, but not the contemplation of rebirth?

In conditioned phenomena, things are divided into rising and falling. Is one more relevant to anicca than the other?
From a practice standpoint, there're 9 gory details unique to Death contemplation which is necessary for the development of Samvega and Nekkhamma. While Rebirth might have its own gory details, the level of graphic details simply don't come even close:
MN 119 wrote:1. A corpse that is "swollen, blue and festering."
2. A corpse that is "being eaten by crows, hawks, vultures, dogs, jackals or by different kinds of worms."
3. A corpse that is "reduced to a skeleton together with (some) flesh and blood held in by the tendons."
4. A corpse that is "reduced to a blood-besmeared skeleton without flesh but held in by the tendons."
5. A corpse that is "reduced to a skeleton held in by the tendons but without flesh and not besmeared with blood."
6. A corpse that is "reduced to bones gone loose, scattered in all directions."
7. A corpse that is "reduced to bones, white in color like a conch."
8. A corpse that is "reduced to bones more than a year old, heaped together."
9. A corpse that is "reduced to bones gone rotten and become dust."
What you explain above is the Asubha Kasina for Samatha meditation. That is to be used as an antidote for greed (Lobha) or attachment.
I have listened to some monks, using death contemplation as Vipassana in terms of Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta
Not many people can find a Kasina object for birth as it is rare.
However, Angulimala became an Arahant with the incident of seeing a woman giving birth.
As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "Just now, lord, early in the morning, having put on my robes and carrying my outer robe & bowl, I went into Savatthi for alms. As I was going from house to house for alms, I saw a woman suffering a breech birth. On seeing her, the thought occurred to me: 'How tormented are living beings! How tormented are living beings!'"
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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mjaviem
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Re: Understanding Maraṇasati

Post by mjaviem »

Bundokji wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:36 am ... Do you know of any suttas where the term has been used?
The sutta I have read was AN 7.49 Dutiyasaññāsutta. There is also SN46:68 Maraṇasutta. But, no, I don't remember a sutta where one would come across perception of death.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
pegembara
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Re: Understanding Maraṇasati

Post by pegembara »

Bundokji wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:46 am
pegembara wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:02 am Thoughts or contemplation of rebirth has the complete opposite effect. Non cessation.
The declaration of awakening begins with reference to birth as ended or destroyed. While Nibbana is often referred to as the deathless state, i do not see why it is less accurate to call it the rebirthless state.

Also death contemplation is not unique to Buddhism, but ending birth is. Ending birth is obviously not death. As such, the task of the holy life is to end rebirth, not to end death.
The problem that we faced is aging, sickness and death. The task that the Buddha faced was exactly to overcome these.

"And what is the noble search? There is the case where a person, himself being subject to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, seeks the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Himself being subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeks the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, undefiled, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. This is the noble search.“

"Then, monks, being subject myself to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, seeking the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke, Unbinding, I reached the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeking the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, unexcelled rest from the yoke, Unbinding, I reached the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'

'Open are the doors to the Deathless
to those with ears.
Let them show their conviction.
Perceiving trouble, O Brahma,
I did not tell people
the refined,
sublime Dhamma.'
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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