Are Samsara and the Nibbana the two sides of the same coin?

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SarathW
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Are Samsara and the Nibbana the two sides of the same coin?

Post by SarathW »

Are Samsara and the Nibbana the two sides of the same coin?
Sri Lankan monk made the above statement.
What is your opinion?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are Samsara and the Nibbana the two sides of the same coin?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Theravāda says no, they are distinct. Ven. Nāgārjuna says yes. Nibbāna is Saṃsāra correctly viewed, i.e. as empty.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
Jack19990101
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Re: Are Samsara and the Nibbana the two sides of the same coin?

Post by Jack19990101 »

There is merit in this statement imo.
I think, from samsara to nibbana, nothing is added, nothing is throw away, merely motion differentiates them.
nmjojola
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Re: Are Samsara and the Nibbana the two sides of the same coin?

Post by nmjojola »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:52 am Theravāda says no, they are distinct.
Are the two sides of a coin not distinct from each other?
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Are Samsara and the Nibbana the two sides of the same coin?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:52 am Theravāda says no, they are distinct. Ven. Nāgārjuna says yes. Nibbāna is Saṃsāra correctly viewed, i.e. as empty.
Very misleading and delusional statement by Nagarjuna.

Samsara is conditioned and dependently arisen.
Nibbana is the unconditioned and independent.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
PeterC86
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Re: Are Samsara and the Nibbana the two sides of the same coin?

Post by PeterC86 »

SarathW wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:17 am Are Samsara and the Nibbana the two sides of the same coin?
Sri Lankan monk made the above statement.
What is your opinion?
Hi SarathW,

Like what Ceisiwr said; Therevada doesn't. Nagarjuna and anyone who holds a similar perspective, can see it like that. Samsara being not understanding DO, and Nibbana being understanding DO.

Can you give me the name of this monk?
santa100
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Re: Are Samsara and the Nibbana the two sides of the same coin?

Post by santa100 »

SarathW wrote:Are Samsara and the Nibbana the two sides of the same coin?
Sri Lankan monk made the above statement.
What is your opinion?
Depends on what the monk meant with that "two sides of the same coin"? Was it simply a colloquial expression of opposites, like night vs day, hot vs cold, etc? then there's no problem. Was it a technical expression? then the problem lies at the "same coin" part cuz Samsara is conditioned while Nibbana is unconditioned, they don't share the same nature, hence they're not of the "same coin".
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Re: Are Samsara and the Nibbana the two sides of the same coin?

Post by DNS »

As others have noted, that's more of a Mahayana teaching. They also use that phrase to refer to enlightened living, helping others on the path to nirvana, thus, in samsara and also nirvana (sort of) when they attain high levels of awakening but do not cease rebirth.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are Samsara and the Nibbana the two sides of the same coin?

Post by Ceisiwr »

DNS wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:44 pm As others have noted, that's more of a Mahayana teaching. They also use that phrase to refer to enlightened living, helping others on the path to nirvana, thus, in samsara and also nirvana (sort of) when they attain high levels of awakening but do not cease rebirth.
I wouldn’t say it’s strictly a Mahāyāna view. I don’t think you have to be a Mahāyānist to agree with Ven. Nāgārjuna.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
Sobhana
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Re: Are Samsara and the Nibbana the two sides of the same coin?

Post by Sobhana »

Nibbana is when there is no coin.
PeterC86
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Re: Are Samsara and the Nibbana the two sides of the same coin?

Post by PeterC86 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:20 pm
DNS wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:44 pm As others have noted, that's more of a Mahayana teaching. They also use that phrase to refer to enlightened living, helping others on the path to nirvana, thus, in samsara and also nirvana (sort of) when they attain high levels of awakening but do not cease rebirth.
I wouldn’t say it’s strictly a Mahāyāna view. I don’t think you have to be a Mahāyānist to agree with Ven. Nāgārjuna.
I will go even further and say that any path or practice is not what Nagarjuna expounded, as he made it clear, at least tried to make it clear, that everything is empty of substance. By saying that there is a certain path or practice to attain Nibbana, one is giving this path or practice substance, which is therefore contraproductive in getting to the insight that everything is empty.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are Samsara and the Nibbana the two sides of the same coin?

Post by Ceisiwr »

PeterC86 wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:31 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:20 pm
DNS wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:44 pm As others have noted, that's more of a Mahayana teaching. They also use that phrase to refer to enlightened living, helping others on the path to nirvana, thus, in samsara and also nirvana (sort of) when they attain high levels of awakening but do not cease rebirth.
I wouldn’t say it’s strictly a Mahāyāna view. I don’t think you have to be a Mahāyānist to agree with Ven. Nāgārjuna.
I will go even further and say that any path or practice is not what Nagarjuna expounded, as he made it clear, at least tried to make it clear, that everything is empty of substance. By saying that there is a certain path or practice to attain Nibbana, one is giving this path or practice substance, which is therefore contraproductive in getting to the insight that everything is empty.
This is nonsense.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are Samsara and the Nibbana the two sides of the same coin?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 2:42 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:52 am Theravāda says no, they are distinct. Ven. Nāgārjuna says yes. Nibbāna is Saṃsāra correctly viewed, i.e. as empty.
Very misleading and delusional statement by Nagarjuna.
Many here would agree with you, so you're in the right place regarding that.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
PeterC86
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Re: Are Samsara and the Nibbana the two sides of the same coin?

Post by PeterC86 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:38 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:31 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:20 pm

I wouldn’t say it’s strictly a Mahāyāna view. I don’t think you have to be a Mahāyānist to agree with Ven. Nāgārjuna.
I will go even further and say that any path or practice is not what Nagarjuna expounded, as he made it clear, at least tried to make it clear, that everything is empty of substance. By saying that there is a certain path or practice to attain Nibbana, one is giving this path or practice substance, which is therefore contraproductive in getting to the insight that everything is empty.
This is nonsense.
Indeed it is. Everything I say is nonsense. Just as you are talking nonsense, and everybody else is talking nonsense. Words are merely understood in the subjective mind and have no inherent essence. Therefore, logic and reasoning are also empty of any essence. It is merely through our linguistical cognition that we are to communicate through conscensus as to what words mean. Also this conscensus is subjective. So through reasoning, we can communicate that everything, including reasoning itself, is empty, without giving reasoning any substance. Furthermore, if logic and reasoning were not empty, then there would be a metaphysical truth one could arrive at.

Therefore, nothing being said or thought anywhere holds any real truth. And therefore, any path or practice said or written about as a way of getting to this understanding is also nonsense. Let alone such a path or practice actually being followed, as they are, like I said, even counterproductive to get this insight, because they are based on nonsense. :) So yes, Nagarjuna explains a non-way, and most people don't get that.

Normally I don't respond to such a hollow post, but this was also to tell you; you're not quite there kid. Goodbye.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are Samsara and the Nibbana the two sides of the same coin?

Post by Ceisiwr »

PeterC86 wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:41 pm

Indeed it is. Everything I say is nonsense. Just as you are talking nonsense, and everybody else is talking nonsense. Words are merely understood in the subjective mind and have no inherent essence. Therefore, logic and reasoning are also empty of any essence. It is merely through our linguistical cognition that we are to communicate through conscensus as to what words mean. Also this conscensus is subjective. So through reasoning, we can communicate that everything, including reasoning itself, is empty, without giving reasoning any substance. Furthermore, if logic and reasoning were not empty, then there would be a metaphysical truth one could arrive at.

Therefore, nothing being said or thought anywhere holds any real truth. And therefore, any path or practice said or written about as a way of getting to this understanding is also nonsense. Let alone such a path or practice actually being followed, as they are, like I said, even counterproductive to get this insight, because they are based on nonsense. :) So yes, Nagarjuna explains a non-way, and most people don't get that.

Normally I don't respond to such a hollow post, but this was also to tell you; you're not quite there kid. Goodbye.
Words being empty doesn't mean they do not carry meaning. You yourself just understood what I wrote, despite words being empty. Look, you are doing it again! Ven. Nāgārjuna never denounced the use of concepts. Concepts are useful. The problem is when we breathe life into them, so to speak. That is what Ven. Nāgārjuna was addressing. If concepts are useless, why did the Buddha teach at all?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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