The Buddha's instruction for Bahiya

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ground
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The Buddha's instruction for Bahiya

Post by ground »

"Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen." has been interpreted by someone as "It means without any conceptual overlay or active arresting/categorisation of experience as discrete dhammas (things)". I am inclined to agree.

However I find it especially tricky in the context of "In reference to the cognized, only the cognized." which refers to mind but not to the 5 so called "physical senses".
How can this be explained using terms and terminology?
"cognition" appears to be readily associated with "re-cognition" which may be already discerned as "conceptual overlay".
So should "cognition" be understood as something like "fresh" insight not to be categorized and clung to through concepts?
Or should it be understood as seeing even re-cognition as just that without trying to contact the alleged object re-cognized?

What is your opinion?

Kind regards
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Ben
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Re: The Buddha's instruction for Bahiya

Post by Ben »

I think you need to consider that the message was tailored to Bahiya.
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in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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cooran
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Re: The Buddha's instruction for Bahiya

Post by cooran »

Hello TMingyur, Ben, all,

Notes from the Bahiya sutta:
''This is a difficult passage. An explanation of it derived from Comy. would be something like this: ‘’In the seen is merely what is seen’’ without adding one’s own views, opinions, concepts, personal likes and dislikes, etc.: that is, just seeing what is there as it actually is. ‘’You will not be with that,’’ bound by that view, by attraction or repulsion, etc. ‘’You will not be in that’’ situation of being deluded and led astray by views and emotions. ‘’You will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two’’: neither in this world nor another world. This means the experience of Nibbana or enlightenment, which is a stepping out of the mundane world.''
Note 21, page 196 The Udana and the Itivuttaka - Two Classics from the Pali Cannon. Translated by John D. Ireland.BPS 1997;2007.

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kirk5a
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Re: The Buddha's instruction for Bahiya

Post by kirk5a »

All this:
"cognition" appears to be readily associated with "re-cognition" which may be already discerned as "conceptual overlay".
So should "cognition" be understood as something like "fresh" insight not to be categorized and clung to through concepts?
Or should it be understood as seeing even re-cognition as just that without trying to contact the alleged object re-cognized?
is cognizing about cognizing. What the passage is saying is - stop doing that.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
lojong1
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Re: The Buddha's instruction for Bahiya

Post by lojong1 »

I'm thinking re-cognition/conceptual overlay is often sanjanati (percieves; Cf. MN 1) with a mistaken object. To start a loop of percieving and cognizing (vijanati) or whatever on top of this mistaken object would be mannati (to conceive)--papanca, to be avoided.
So should "cognition" be understood as something like "fresh" insight not to be categorized and clung to through concepts?
Fresh, no clinging.
trying to contact the alleged object re-cognized
Yes, evil, no can do. That's where papanca lies?

MN 42: "Feeling, perception, and consciousness[...]are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is impossible to separate each of these states from the others in order to describe the difference between them..."
I'm still too fast and too slow to do more than quote and shrug.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: The Buddha's instruction for Bahiya

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Meditating on Mind Objects Brings Nibbāna Near
Here, ideas or dhammas - mental objects are not ultimate realities, but concepts (paññatti). However, mind-consciousness itself is an ultimate reality. It comprises thoughts and ideas created by the mind object. It appears, and disappears the next instant, so is impermanent. When a meditator visualises an object and notes it with mindfulness, it disappears as soon as it is noted. What actually happens is the disappearance of mind-consciousness that constitutes mind (nāma). As the observer is intent upon the object, he or she loses sight of the citta or nāma created by it. As he or she notes it like this, no attachment arises. In other words, mindfulness dispels lust or passion. In such circumstances consciousness just occurs, it does not go beyond that. This is in accordance with the instruction, “Viññatam viññānamatta bhavissati - when you know, just know it.” If one fails to meditate on the mind object, feeling tends to incite defilements.
For example, suppose that you buy a lottery ticket and start to imagine what you might do if you win the top prize. While you are fantasising about the things you might buy, and the pleasures you might enjoy, you are deluded. Then, mindfulness arises, and realises that this is just a fantasy. It sees the mental object for what it is — just a thought process. At that moment, the delusion ceases.
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pulga
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Re: The Buddha's instruction for Bahiya

Post by pulga »

From the Ven. Ñanavira's Notes on Dhamma under "Mano":

"Note that just as the eye, as cakkháyatana or cakkhudhátu, is that
yena lokasmim lokasaññí hoti lokamání [that] by which, in the world, one is a perceiver and conceiver of the world
(Saláyatana Samy. xii,3 <S.iv,95>), i.e. that thing in the world dependent upon which there is perceiving and conceiving of the world, namely a spherical lump of flesh set in my face; so the mind, as manáyatana or manodhátu, also is that yena lokasmim lokasaññí hoti lokamání, i.e. that thing in the world dependent upon which there is perceiving and conceiving of the world, namely various ill-defined parts of my body, but principally a mass of grey matter contained in my head (physiological and neurological descriptions are strictly out of place -- see PHASSA).[c] This is in agreement with the fact that all five khandhá arise in connexion with each of the six áyatanáni -- see NÁMA & PHASSA [a]" (emphasis mine, note that there is a viññána present within the five khandhá that corresponds to each of the six áyatanáni).
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
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ground
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Re: The Buddha's instruction for Bahiya

Post by ground »

Very interesting responses! Thank you very much!

Kind regards
pegembara
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Re: The Buddha's instruction for Bahiya

Post by pegembara »

There is thinking, no thinker
There is hearing, no hearer
There is seeing, no seer

In thinking, just thoughts
In hearing, just sounds
In seeing, just forms, shapes and colors.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Goedert
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Re: The Buddha's instruction for Bahiya

Post by Goedert »

TMingyur wrote:
"Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What is your opinion?

Kind regards
1 - In reference to the seen, there will be only seen.
1 - There is no self seeing. Just images

2 - In reference to the heard, only the heard.
2 - There is no self hearing. Just sounds

3 - In reference to sensations, only the sensed.
3 - There is no self sensing. Just sensations.

4 - In reference to cognition, only the cognition.
4 - There is no self observing/percepting. Just observation/perception - Very subtle and hard to put in words this phase of the trainning - do not try to make a relation of self and cognitive object aka formations in relations to sensations, sounds and images.

One trainning like this will come to understand that the caracteristc of all phenomena is impermanent and not-self and in due time will be realesed from dukkha like Bahiya.
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Nibbida
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Re: The Buddha's instruction for Bahiya

Post by Nibbida »

TMingyur wrote:
"Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen." has been interpreted by someone as "It means without any conceptual overlay or active arresting/categorisation of experience as discrete dhammas (things)". I am inclined to agree.

However I find it especially tricky in the context of "In reference to the cognized, only the cognized." which refers to mind but not to the 5 so called "physical senses".
How can this be explained using terms and terminology?
"cognition" appears to be readily associated with "re-cognition" which may be already discerned as "conceptual overlay".
So should "cognition" be understood as something like "fresh" insight not to be categorized and clung to through concepts?
Or should it be understood as seeing even re-cognition as just that without trying to contact the alleged object re-cognized?

What is your opinion?

Kind regards
This simply means observing thoughts as nothing but thoughts. Rather than getting drawn into the content of the thoughts, one notices the process of thinking occurring, the arising and passing of mental talk and images.

Otherwise it becomes thinking about thinking, and thinking about thinking about thinking, etc.
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